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Once I have my engine put together with the piston/rod combo, what type of snail should I look for? Right now I have the all-famous 14b. I was looking into a big 16g, but I am not sure if it will put me @ the hp I am shooting for which is around 300'ish. Will that get me there on lets say decent tuning and 9.1.1 compression...or am I looking @ a t3t4 setup??? Thanks all... |
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Any hybrid turbo should make 300 peak hp. why do u want to make 300hp? |
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Why don't you go with a Precision t3/t4 Street & High Performance snail tha suits your motor setup and needs for #'s best? They are proven, and everyone that runs them seems to love them. I bought my SC44 from Jayson (PensacolaSi) at Forced Air, and I couldn't be any more happier after dealing with him. |
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Quote: Why not...?? I feel its good to have a goal....thats all...I did the 200whp thing...why not the 300whp thing...? I went to Sc34, but didn't see any prices??? Can anyone help.... Thanks.... |
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Quote:Quote: sc34 |
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Your Price: $742.50 cough cough....I remember now, why I went with the 14b. They are a dime a dozen.... Is that the best possible price? |
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you gotta pay to play, and playing at 300hp isn't cheap in a honda |
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personally id get an sc61 and make 300 whp at like 8-10 psi..then up it to 15 and make 400 on your built motor..but thats me sc34 isnt a bad choice though. way better then the 14b. itll treat you right.. get it tuned well please..none of this vafc hack shit..especially ifyour investing in a built motor..dont think it wont blow up |
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Built doesn't include sleeves....so I think 400hp is out of the question..... I will be investing in a Hondata if I build the engine... $700+ bucks is steep for a turbo Imo...I have no doubt its rock solid...this is a fun project....not a track car that I want to dump tons of $$ into.... |
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so what? stock sleeves EASILY handle 400 whp. people have made 600+ whp with them. there is no reason why you cant make 400 whp with only piston and rods(+other shit like fuel mods)...well there is...the turbo you choose 700 isnt that steap at all. not the cheapest but certainley not steap. and they raent that much moeny to rebuild..garret gt turbos on the other hadn are(adn cost 1500 us new) thats getting steap |
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if u want ill try and post pics of the turbo in my engine bay. |
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Damn, your 14b turbo probably felt like my JRSC on my D-series. puke and die up top hehe Power still increased on a dyno, but like the way it should FEEL like a big snail. I'm going with a garrett or turbonetics turbo. Some like a straight T3 48.60 on a b16, but if you're throwing in pistons/rods and plan to up the boost. Go with the famous T3/T4 hybirds. Just gotta keep an eye out for a good deal.\ |
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I'd go t3/t4s. If you're not going to upgrade the valvetrain I wouldn't go anywhere near the SC61. On the manifold you're using and with your exhaust (2.5" right?) you will never spool it up. Even with a 3" catless exhaust and the revhard manifold my SC50 spools kind of late, like full boost in 3rd gear comes at 5300-5500rpms or so. For daily driving it's hard to get in boost if I don't rev it to at least 5k. The Sc61 is a great turbo, but it needs the right parts for it to work the way it's supposed to. A lower compression stock bore and stroke b16 is not what I would consider a good foundation for it. The 16g will probably get you to high 200s but you'll have to boost the shit out of it. If I were you I'd try to pick up a 57 trim T3/704e from Garrett, it's essentially the same as the Sc34 but cheaper. I'd also go with the .48 exhaust housing. |
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Quote:Quote: you missed my point. if you make 300peak hp at 8k it will drive different than a car that peaks 300hp at 6500. so why limit yourself with a round Hp figure? why not set your goal by driveability and actual speed? why are people so fixated on peak hp figures as if it means something? put plain and simple. if you make 300 peak hp from a sc34 its a totally different car if its making that 300 peak hp from a bigger sc61. I dont think you understand what you want thats why I asked you why do you want 300hp. |
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Beleive it or not, my 14b really didn't die out to much. I mean it could have pulled harder in the upper Rpms, only fell of a few psi by 8k....anyway.... I found an equal length manifold for a t3/t4 setup. I plan on ditching my existing turbo and manifold and upgrading to a 3" d/p. As of right now I have a 2.5". As $$ and time allows I will prolly go with a 3". I am going to buy a welder this fall/winter and try learning how to weld my own stuff. I don't want to have to rely on somebody else doing my work. Frustrates me... As far as what I need...to be honest with you guys I don't know. I can tell you want I am doing and what I want...maybe that will help. Stock valvetrain rev to 8k. Stock bore with eagle rods and weisco/srp/cp pistons. 9.1.1 approx. Stock sleeves. Tuned w/Hondata. Now.....what turbo should I look into. Its gonna be driven mostly on the street, with some autocross and alot of drag. With that said, spool is important...stop light to stop light. I want to make good solid power (obviously...lol). Price is also a huge factor. I don't have nor want to spend $700+ dollars on a turbo. What are my options... Again...thx for everyones help....I very much appreciate it.... |
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T3/T4 .63 |
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Quote: ok...but why? |
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I was doing a little researching on H-T also and ran across this... Quote: Not gonna by it...but is this something I would be looking for...y/n and why? Thanks.... |
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Quote: Taken from home page, which of course you didnt see since you had a direct link (no hatin on the link providing though): "If you do not create an account, you will NOT see our lowest pricing, period. Don't miss out! Take two minutes to create an account with us. To do so, taking only two minutes of your time, click on "LOGON" above, then click on "I am a new customer". If you have created an account with us, you are already seeing the benefits, which includes savings of over 3% on many items. Simply for creating an account! " That is all. |
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Quote: Quote: No. Not if your power goals are roughly 300whp and you know that thats going to be your goal for awhile (not to say my recommendation coming up wont support more). The reason. The SC61 while having a decent progressing powerband, will still more than likely be far too "laggy" for your application. I'm shooting from the hip here since I do not know your setup, but, the GT28RS, GT35R and GT3255 are all nice turbos that would probably better suit you. |
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Didn't even see that....I will create an account and see what I come up with... I want a good powerband that doesn't lag. 300whp on a daily driver 2600lb car is alot. That will last me for a while...lol... What I don't understand is this: What logic are you guys using to say X turbo is great...while Y turbo is going to be to laggy? I don't see where you are getting this and how you know? Please be kind.... |
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Man you don't have to listen to any of us. Here, take a look at different dynos of different setups tuned by one guy. This will allow you to compare and give you an idea of what makes the kind of power you're looking for and what kind of powerband you're looking for: http://www.evans-tuning.com/viewforum.php?f=5&sid=183d2f3719feee07b455d0a607708a1a I mean, we can sit here all day long and talk about what works and what doesn't. But from what I've learned in this game, noone knows for sure what kind of power you will make and how to give you the powerband of your dreams; it's impossible to tell unless you've actually tried things yourself, because noone knows your setup as well as you. Noone on here has the right answer for sure. Oh....and you get used to 300whp reeeealll quick. Trust me. I'll say it again, I'd try a t3/t4 with a .48 exhaust housing if I were you. Precision sc50s. sc32s, sc34s...don't matter, any of these will make 300whp pretty easily. The Gt28rs will probably outspool any of those, cuz it's ball bearing and not quite as big a turbo, but last time I checked, they cost over a grand. If Pensacola can do better than that, then by all means go for one of those |
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Quote: Though speaking from experience of performing dynos, selling turbos left and right. I -believe- you'd be happy with the results from the GT3255. Although, I still do not know your setup, therefore it only makes things a little more difficult. |
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Thanks guys...I apprecaite the extra help you all have showed. I am in the process of "learning" what I need to do, and what I need to make $$. I I will be in touch... Thanks again.... |
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please do yourself a favour and go with a .63 exh a/r... not a .48. an sc61 would spool fine ... but ifyou want something alittle quick id go with an sc34. how it is gt35r gonna spool better then an sc61 if hes complaning about 700 for a new t3/t4 you can forget agbout any of the GT stuff. not to mention a gt35r wont spool super fast either. to me... a honda motor doesnt have low end..they are high end screamers and get moving once vtec hits..so for a street turbo anything spooling as late as 5500 is good in my books! dont forget fullboost at 5500 doesnt mean NO boost at all till then..its somewhat progressive. |
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Yea...the Gt stuff is close or over a grand...way to rich for my blood. This is a fun hobby, not my life, especially while I am still going to school. I like the sc61/34 stuff. Seems good quality. I would like to be in boost by around 3-5k. Not necessaraly full boost but in boost none the less. B/c what I enjoyed about my car before was that it had more low end for everyday driving. I don't want it to be a dog below 4k..... |
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Quote: Any reasoning behind your suggestion? I mean he clearly stated that he wanted a more responsive turbo. I really don't think the SC61 or a .63 a/r exhaust housing is what he's looking for. Not everybody wants to make 600whp to impress the internet crowd and have a useless street car. |
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Quote: Oh any of those you will start to make boost at 3.5k rpms, but it won't be anything major. What you want is something that will make full boost by 4200-4500rpms, then you're talking spoolup. On my sc50 I start making boost at 3krpms but it isn't until 5k rpms+ that I start to feel significant power. In day to day traffic, if I want to feel boost I find myself shifting at around 6krpms. My powerband is great for racing, because it's always in the high rpms after every shift, but for daily driving, it could use a faster spool up. It's become more apparent lately because I've been driving the car in day to day traffic a lot. |
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Yea....I want to feel some boost by or around 4k for daily driving..help with the stop light to stop light routine. As far as dragging and highway pulls...topend would be fabalous.... |
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Well IMO the following constraints.. 1. Have low-end response 2. Great top-end 3. 300+ whp 4. Not too expensive don't have a match for a 1.6 liter Honda engine. The only way would be a ball-bearing turbo with a somewhat large exhaust housing to feed the top-end. You could always try the sc50 with .48 a/r but I don't know how the top-end would be. 12-15 psi should net you 300whp.. |
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would it help the spoolup of a .63 a/r if he went to a 3" exhaust and a equal length manifold? isn't the 14b a .48 a/r also? and he never had problems with it dying off in upper rpms? |
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it dies..he just doesn tknow any better ahhahaa. i think he should go with the .63 a/r cause itll still spool just fine. i really don tknow why your spools so late cliff. friend of mine has a t3/t04e 57 trim and hits full boost around 4600 rpm. i agree with what gab said... you want to do to much that really isnt possible. why do you want more power for daily use? the car is fine by itself ... you plan on boosting in every gear? your gas mileage will be complete shit if you do that!!! i can understand for the odd ocation though. however nothing a downshift cant fix.... even if it hits full boost at 4500 rpm the car STILL wont really be that quick since itl will be making maybe 150 ftlbs of torque and low hp(low revs)... it doesnt make sense to try and make the motor what its not. a low end powerhouse. just enhance what you alreadyhave. my turbo had some boost by 3500 rpm but didnt hit full till 5k rpm.. it did have some slightt more pick up in the 3.5-5k range but to me it didnt make any difference for daily use since if i were to try and take advantage of that extra pick up..it jsut meant more gas being used..if im gonna use more gas i might aswell be at 8000 rpm i woudl go with the sc61 but thats me. easily make 300 whp by 10 psi and spool up isnt that bad..but if you really want that extra 500-1000 little bit of go...then a 50 trim would probably suit you better..but id still stick with the .63 a/r. |
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I rode in his car with the 14b, it didn't die off, though the wastegate was only set at 9lbs. That turbo has a good bit more in it, though I don't think near enough to peak 300hp. Anyways, like I said would a bigger exhaust and an equal length manifold help spool? Also do you think he'll have to upgrade his fuel injectors...right now he's running 450's. |
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Here's a dyno for a revhard kit with a 57 trim t3t4 and the .48 a/r housing 2.5" dp and 3" exhaust. Boost level was 9psi. Engine is stock B16a2. There's no dying off. Here's practically the same kit at the same boost level on another stock b16a with a 57 trim t3t4 and .63 a/r. 2.5" dp, 2.5" catback exhaust Considering boost levels and the exhaust on both kits were almost similar I thought it was a fair way to compare the a/r housings since it was the main difference in the kits. Both kits were tuned on the same dyno by the same tuner using Hondata s200. You can clearly see that the bigger one definitely lags more, and in this particular case produces less peak hp. Also if you compare the area under the curve between 3500-5000rpms in those two setups you can clearly see what I'm talking about. Anyway, I am most definitely going to switch to the smaller housing. It's not that expensive and I want to compare badly. Once I do you'll see my own dyno comparisons from before and after. :cool I'm in no way trying to make my car feel like a v8, but midrange response could be better. I've ridden and driven enough turbo hondas to know this. |
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Quote: A bigger exhaust and ELM would definitely help more, but unless he can fabricate his own I really don't think he wants to go there. Those manifolds are pricey. Those injectors will be maxed out at that power level, and that's after raising his static fuel pressure to 50psi or so. I guess he can raise it even more, but I wouldn't do it. To be safe he needs at least 680s. You always want bigger injectors than you need, just to avoid running them at near 100% duty cycle. |
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Cliff, I'm delighted that you are willing to be the first guinea-pig with the .48 a/r Please please keep me posted on how it goes, I've been tempted to make the same move for a LONG time. Supid question: You'll need to retune the entire thing right? |
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Quote: Wow that helps out a lot. Definitely let us know what happens. I am really interested. .48 a/r is more and more seeming to be the way to go. Too bad there is really no such thing as like a .55 a/r Edit: Yay! finally a Jr. Poster after over 2 years! |
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I don't understand...I got 200whp and 153wtq with the little 14b @ aprox 8 psi in 4th gear... Its not worth my time or $$ to "upgrade" for 20-30 hp...? I don't understand.... |
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where'd you get that from? |
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first? cause no one has used a .48? that test isnt right. if they are the same the .63 should be making more torque and hp even if it"lags" a little more.. go ahead with the .48. IMO i wouldnt do it. |
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I say get the .48 cause : 1. it's going to be better than what you have now, making you happy regardless 2. It's not going to die off....the 14b didn't, that turbo will flow more air, so it's not going to either. actually get the one that you can get the best deal on...i recommend a .48...maybe you can call a couple dyno shops see what they recommend/have seen on your setups |
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I would like to see some info so I could better understand all this. Make my decision alot easier.... |
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um...it's all in this thread |
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the .48 exh a/r vs the .63 exh a/r .48 spools slightly earlier but will make less power(depite what cliff posted) and in some cases the .48 dies off up top (if you are revving particularly high say 8500+) i like the .63 personally over the .48 a/r. the .63 still spools decently and still makes boost at the same rpm as the .48..just not quite as much but thats no big deal to me . Id rather have the more top end. and its not like the .48 is going to make it have screw blower response in the low revs. Mine was .82 a/r but since it was BB is spooled like a .63 a/r. Some boost by 3500 and Full boost at 5000 rpm on my stock 1.6. Heres a pic showing an example of basically how the torque curves would look like with the .48 and .63. edit: trying to find it ITS TOTALLY UP TO YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so stfu already with the million posts and pick one its also harder to hook up downlow |
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Quote: |
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Quote: Yeah I agree, it will probably die off if you rev past 8500, but Ex isn't planning to rev that high is he? Quote: If you aren't going to rev past 9000rpms I doubt you will notice a top end difference. But if you're fully spooled at 4500rpms instead of 5500rpms you will notice it. Quote: I would have loved to see that graph. Not that I don't believe you, but if you've seen my graph, Gab's graph and countless others, you'd know that smaller turbos than yours are spooling later. What manifold were you using? Quote: I used to agree with that, until I actually went to the track. It's hard to hook up when the boost builds up too slow. YOu can't really feather the gas because if you do, there's no boost at all. If it were a more responsive turbo it would be easier. Cars like srt4s or 1.8ts for example, seem to have little problem posting some good 60' and 1/8 mile times for their power levels, even though they're fwd like us. It's mostly because their stock turbos spool so early. With turbo Hondas you see the 14.0 @110mph too often., because most guys don't spool until 5000rpms+. |
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Quote: I have been looking for the "why". Not so much, "buy this one". I want to understand why I should buy x turbo... |
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This is some confusing shit you guys are talking about... |
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there is apower difference between the 2. theres no arguing that. the .63 will put out more power. as for mine. i was using an inline pro manifold. full boost @5k on b16. i shit you not. and it had some decent mid range since it was making some boost by 3500 rpm garrett gtr stuff is wonderful. as for hooking down low..yes it is harder. you see guys runnign decent times cause half the honda owners cant drive worth a shit. your comparing crappy honda times to decent vw's times.. not all the vw's and srt's do so well, not to mention the srt has an lsd(well does now) and equal length drive shafts which help quite a bit with wheel hop and hooking up. when i was untuned i ran 14.1 @98 mph wheel hopping through first gear. if my turbo spool earlier i wouldve just sat there doing a burnout if you can hook up then it would be alright..but if you can hook up you might aswell go for the more power i couldnt find that damn graph..sorry. anyways..its completely up to you and what you wan ex. .48 will spool somewhat earlier while the .63 will provide more hp and torque from say 6k and onwards. either one is better then NONE |
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Quote: This is very true.... I will post some various "eBay specials" and see what you think for comparison.... Sidenote: If I grabbed a set of type R springs/retainers, would that allow me to rev to 9k? Keeping my Si valves/cams, assuming the turbo can feed it until there... Btw....I want to say thanks yet again for those who have stayed tuned to this thread and provided great info. If we lived closer I would meet up to shake your hand.... |
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This turbo keeps popping up.... Precision Sc-3134e Here are the specs from there Website : 545 (max hp rating) SC-3431E (model #) 56mm (wheel diam) 2.230" (wheel inducer) 2.950" (wheel exducer) 57 (trim) 3" (To4E inlet/outlet) 360 "(bearing system) .48 (a/r ratio) T31 (turbine specs/wheel style) 2.559" (wheel inducer) 2.228" (wheel exducer) A couple of things I don't understand are: The wheel trim # ?? The a/r ratio. What is this the ratio of? The smaller the # the faster it spools but the less h/p it makes? Thanks... |
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I took my stock Si valvetrain to 9k many times..but to be ont eh safer side.. itr intake springs is all you need. take your Si intake and put them on your exhaust.. then take itr intake and put them on your intake.. the retainers are the same on the itr, si and gsr iirc. i would really just buy a turbo from a reputable person here(like pensacola) or h-t !!! as for what you dont understand. Compressor A/R is determined by dividing the radius of the compressor housing by the smallest diameter of the compressor outlet . Exhaust housing A/R is determined by dividing the radius of the exhaust by the smallest diameter of the exhaust inlet . As the A/R numerically increases so does the housings ability to induce/exduce a specific volume of air. Lag and effective power range will also be affected by A/R changes. Look at the A/R pic below. http://wwwrsphysse.anu.edu.au/~amh110/all_gifs/Turbo%20page%20gifs/trim%20ratio formula for determining comp TRIM [(minor wheel diameter)x(minor wheel diameter) / (major wheel diameter)x (major wheel diameter) ] x 100= trim T04E 60 [(2.290)(2.290)/(2.950)(2.950)] x 100= trim (5.2441/8.7025) x 100= trim .6026 x 100 = trim 60= trim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- flip that to determine turbine wheel trim [(exducer)(exducer)/(inducer)(inducer)]x100 = turbine wheel trim some wheel specs if you want to practice math http://64.225.76.178/catalog/comp_wheels.html - compressor sides http://64.225.76.178/catalog/twheel.html - turbine side http://64.225.76.178/catalog/thousing.html - turbine side dont over complicate shit!!! trim relates to comp map. diff trims have diff maps but all the ones in question are similar however the bigger the turbo the more itll flow(even at low boost) and a/r..simple explanation is. the smaller it is..the quicker itll spool, however it wont give as much power as the bigger number will since it cant quite flow as much. |
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Quote: Yea...I have a bad habit of doing that... Anyway...That was exactly what I was looking for. Reasons explaining why... Helps out tremendously. Very much Appreciated. So...(hypothetically) what if you had let's say a sc34 vs a sc61 The 34 was a .63 and the 61 was a .48 Would there be a difference.....? |
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try that --> http://www.beesandgoats.com/boostfaq/g2icturbo.html turbo part is about a 1/3 down. |
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Quote: Great Find....That is definatly needs to be a sticky!!!! |
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i was gonna say..there is a difference between turbos! yes it would be different. im not sure how each would act since i dont have any experience with them like that nor have I read anything about it although im sure its around somewhere. but YES it would be slightly different. from what i have read too, most recommend the .63 with the sc61. if you wanna read more about it, there are a million posts about it on h-t. just use the search function.tonnes-o reading..just make sure you can distinguish between the right info and wrong sc34 is a 57 trim to4e comp wheel while the sc61 has a NEW GT40 comp wheel..puts out more power and is more efficient. |
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Quote: errr, i think there are words to describe the opposite of induce, like expel, belch, blow out, cast out, discharge, disgorge, dislodge, drive out, ejaculate, eruct, erupt, evacuate, exhaust, exudate, exude , irrupt, pass, remove, spew, throw out. Allthough, exude is most often used with intangible ideas. On a side note, small exhuast sides, overboosted rock! I am a big fan of the overboosted Greddy Kits. If i were in your shoes, i would pick up a t25 (same flange as yours right?) and use the extra cash towards tuning/better cartrige. |
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I have been spending alot of time on H-t anyway. I am very interested in the idea of swapping my valve springs so I can rev to 9k..... Side note....a t25 won't work with the manifold I have. It only accpets Dsm turbo's. 13g,14b, 16g, etc... I would be wasting my time with a t25 anyway....upper rpms...it would die out..... |
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