| ElectronVTEC2 |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/09/10 02:38 AM |
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The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Having trouble staying asleep tonight so I figured I'd come on down and explain why I am now in my 3rd car of 2010 and why, overall, my experience with German cars left a little to be desired.
I'll start by saying as a machine, I really don't think one can build a much better one than the Audi S4. Unfortunately, the driving experience is not the end-all to owning a car, and my ultimate decision to get out of the S4 came down to practicality and some recent life changes, though nothing very drastic really.
The pros of the S4:
Fit and finish were second to none, and I've owned quite a few cars. The interior, as everyone knows, spawned generations of dash molesters single-handedly.
Highway driving - the S4 is the first car that truly made me wonder how awesome the US would be with a true autobahn. It simply lives at 70+ MPH.
The combination of refinement and performance it manages to pull off is nothing short of amazing. Something with it's capabilities just shouldn't be as quiet and "plush" as it is. This could be viewed in a negative light by some crowds, however.
The cons:
Ya'll warned me about it, and I didn't listen: gas mileage. I never bought this car with the intention of hypermiling it by any means, but jesus christ Audi, put a longer 6th gear in. Traveling at 75 MPH and turning damn near 3500 RPM in a V8 6MT is fucking stupid and unnecessary, and you know it. Plus, and this is my own issue - my commute to work recently changed from a 30-mile each way highway commute to a 20 mile each-way city commute. Fuck me and the Audi's 13 mpg in the city in the ass.
My local dealership - as referenced in a previous post, I got bent over and fucked hard with no reacharound by those jokers, and it truly sealed the deal on my decision to sell. Called the credit card company - no love for this hoe, I can tell you that.
The selling experience - I could write for days about how I will never, ever, ever try to sell another German car, but in summary, I will just say that the average customer shopping for a used German car is a very rare, picky, and... how shall I say... "frugal" thing.
To sum up, my maintenance risk and to a lesser extent my piss-poor fuel economy + new commute both tipped the scales in favor of going back to the two-car model. I have obtained a perfectly plain, fuel-sipping, "auto-slushbox so the wife can drive it" 2003 Civic EX and I have to say, I'm loving life. My gas mileage, no shit, has increased by almost 3 times, plus I can go back to cat-piss unleaded. Since the car payment is 1/3 of the Audi, I can even further accelerate my debt-payoff plan. I plan to completely eliminate all credit cards and at *least* one car payment and then I will go shopping for a fun car. Something like a Mustang to turbo, or a stock C5Z, or maybe a Nissan Z to turbo charge? Don't know really, but some sort of a project down the road that I can buy with cash.
As for my future with German cars - the only possible way I ever purchase another one is if I can get a good deal on a CPO unit, or buy an older, well-maintained and easier for the home mechanic to work on example with cash. The depreciation hit on high-end German cars is nothing short of stunning, and was unfortunately not something I factored in when I bought the Audi in the first place.
CN: Audi ownership was too expensive for my tastes. Picked up a 2003 Civic EX, sold the Audi, and will buy a project car after all my debt is paid off. Hoo-effing-ray. Even with all that said, for those with more resources than I can devote to a car at this point, the S4 really *is* a terrific machine.
Todd
| cliff st-clair |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/09/10 04:37 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Yeah to me the gas mileage is the biggest turnoff. And couple that with the relatively small tank I'm sure I'd begin to hate it after a couple months too. To own a car like that I'd have to be a true baller, like greekthug, for example.
Good luck with the Civic and your future purchase!
| ElectronVTEC2 |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/09/10 07:19 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Yea, it's hard to let something like that ruin a car for you but it really does get old after a little while. The unfortunate thing? The issue that prompted me to take the car to the dealer actually caused the car to get almost 20% better mileage. Prior to getting fixed, I was seeing 20 to 22 mpg at a 70 mph cruise on the highway. After the fix, I was only getting around 17 to 18 under the same conditions. That was basically when I said FML, I just spent $XXX to get even worse gas mileage. Oh, and the car wasn't nearly as responsive afterward either. Not sure how or why, but it just is what it is. I absolutely do not regret buying it though, it was quite the car to own, even if only for five months...
Todd
| 65_289 |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/09/10 07:55 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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That really sucks to hear. I wonder if the new supercharged S4 would have left a different taste in your mouth (and less anal pain).
| grkthugisback |
| (Jr Poster) |
| 10/09/10 09:15 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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LOLOLOLOL ... Funnnny one 65 . Sorry to hear about your bad experience in the GErman world my friend . And Cliff if you wanna drive nice cars i can still make you my best friend slave driver and we can cruise all day LOL . ( dont be alarmed people im not racist and me and Cliff are old friends) . Electron when did you purchase this car ? Was it new or used ? I personally feel that buying such NICE NICE cars New is a waste . I think buying it used it always a better way to go . Just make sure its certified and has low miles . You would be amazed the money you save on these nice cars . Now when you bought the S4 you KNEW you where getting a V8 bro , dont act suprised that you got shit gas mileage . Lol What v8 gets good gas mileage ? My Cayenne if i do highway driving on its 22 gallon tank can MAYBE get 350 miles on the tank . In the city ? I get about 225-260 depending how I drive on that tank and if its in sport mode all the time or not . I personally only hate the fact that I gotta keep putting gas in not cause of the money , but for the simple fact that im like DAMN i gotta put gas again in this bitch ? My Honda V6 accord Can do 400 miles on a tank and i believe is 15 gallons . So i get a nice break from filling that tank up at the station .
If your in debt , then buying a nice car wasnt actually the smartest thing to do , BUT if it makes you happy sometimes you gotta just do it and work thru it . If you want to get a cheaper car to have fun with ? Just look at all those NICE NICE cars you thought you couldnt afford and find them used bro . Your telling me you wouldnt want a nice used Rs4 ???? Shit I saw one yesterday and that bitch was SWEEEEEEETT . Just pay off your debt , take your time and by yourself a nice car you can enjoy on weekends . Keep the civic to beat around in . And drive your other car on the weekends broham .
| ElectronVTEC2 |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/09/10 10:35 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Grk, I bought it used, non-certified (prev. owner had it under CPO for a few years). It was actually in pretty darn good shape, was well-maintained and very, very clean. I just got the raw end of the stick on the cooling system issue and it soured me on the whole experience really fast.
I get what you're saying about the V8, but honestly? Look at the CTS-V, supercharged V8 getting the same or better economy than the S4, whilst making 200+ more bhp. Or, look at our good friend Ellis - 35% larger than the 4.2, makes 28 mpg on the highway thanks to *intelligent* 6th gear ratio. All the same though, you're absolutely right on multiple counts - when in debt, don't go buy a potentially risky, high-end luxo car. Especially not one that will rape you at the pump.
Winter's coming up here so I'll have a solid 6 months to work my magic on our debt and I think that when all is said and done, I'll have 75% of it paid off by the time April hits. I'll never stop being a car guy, I just need to pull back a little bit and be a *smarter* car guy :).
Todd
| Impulsive |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/09/10 12:22 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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I don't like bad gas mileage, but CSi concerns itself with it a bit too much. The right car is worth a few bucks at fill up. Not many V8 power cars get great mileage. Shit, my G35 gets about 24-25 highway when driven nicely, but 16-17 in the city. My RDX does better. I'd gladly pop $5 more dollar per fill for 50 hp (though a G37 is likely the answer for a bit less power, but better gearing).
I am a bit shocked at the highway gearing - 6 speeds and 3500 at 75 is nuts.
| NOT spotch... |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/09/10 01:34 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: 65_289
That really sucks to hear. I wonder if the new supercharged S4 would have left a different taste in your mouth (and less anal pain).
Highly doubtful. A guy at my job had the older turbo S4 and those were a shittastic maintenance nightmare as well. Constantly broken, expensive repairs, etc. This seems to be a pretty consistent pattern with Audi.
EDIT: You run similar risks with BMW though. What kind of car company in the modern era designs numerous models where the subframe just tears from daily driver duty?
| NOT spotch... |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/09/10 01:37 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Good kill on the civic EX, I suppose. If it were me I would've held off for an LX or an HX (better gas mileage, and a little cheaper... esp the LX). I hated the handling on that generation civic, but at least they're dead fucking reliable and get gas mileage for days. I talk about it a lot here, but 47~mpg on the highway, with passengers and the a/c on, through hilly country and shit, is pretty damn good (my old 5speed LX).
| danl |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/09/10 03:11 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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EV, your story is the same as every other German car owner I know. My uncle has had good luck with BMW's, that is as long as he trades it in before the factory warranty is up. BMW has even been good about paying for taxi rides to get him home when his BMW shuts off on him for reasons even the dealership can't understand why.
My aunt was $11,000 in the hole before she gave up on her Audi. She got an Infinity and couldn't be happier.
| Euphoricuck |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/09/10 04:09 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Good kill . imho it makes the most sense to pay off more of your debt for sure.
it wouldve been nice to have some winter fun in that thing...ah well you will have something else in a yrs time or so.
So far Ive been doing fine. Mileage is not to bad on this turd so I am ok with it. Theres some more preventative things I need to address but nothing to unexpected for an 11 yr old car.
the high revs on the highway is a bit weird for a v8...but its more driving style in general and load thatll burn more gas than some extra revs will.
so if you are getting 15 mpg on the highway...another 1000 rpm down wouldnt really improve it all that much.
You made the right choice at the end of the day. (except you shouldve got a 5 spd
)| danl |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/09/10 05:16 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Peak engine fuel efficiency (BSFC) is at torque peak. If torque peak (at cruising engine load) is at 3500 then the gearing is correct. The issue is that smaller high strung engines (think s2000 and maybe the S4) rely on an engine design that breathes well at higher flow rates. What this means is that the torque peak is shifted to high throttle angle and high RPM. On something like a LS1 the engineers don't have to worry as much about high flow efficiency and can afford to also design in good low flow efficiency and thus get a good quality fuel/air charge mixture at these low flow (and low rpm) areas. Efficient mixture preparation means good BSFC and thus good gas mileage.
CN:
Bigger is better but turbos are cool too.
| Impulsive |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/09/10 05:47 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: danl
Peak engine fuel efficiency (BSFC) is at torque peak. If torque peak (at cruising engine load) is at 3500 then the gearing is correct.
Empirical fuel economy evidence disagrees. When you talk Peak engine efficiency, you are referring to WOT, not the 10% throttle required to maintain 75 mph.
FWIW, the G37 gets 3 mpg better on the highway - due to the extra gears in the trans. I would think we all know by now that overdrives work. Even BMW is touting good efficiency gains simply by going to the 8 speed auto over the 6.
| Euphoricuck |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/09/10 07:01 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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if the car has enough torch to maintain the spd without the need for extra load. it will get slightly better mpg.
but as ive always said...for most cars you wont see a huge increase in fuel consumption from a little bit of extra revs. like all those who whine about hondas revving high on the highway. giving it another gear that dropped the revs 1k or more(for example) would probably make it drink more fuel since it would need more load (throttle) to maintain the same speed since it makes lower torch.
driving style and how much load you put on the motor has bigger effects than some revs do.
an s4 is less high strung than say its bigger bro the rs4. anyways, i still maintain that if the s4 revved 1000 rpm less youd see only small increases in mpg.
and it likely cant lug along like the lsx can.
| LNXGUY |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/09/10 07:32 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Man, that fucking car shouldn't be running 3500rpm at 75mph, good god.
| Impulsive |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/09/10 07:33 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Yeah it's not a huge difference, but it's the difference between 22 mpg highway and 24-25. Even weaker engines (small V6's, big 4 cyls) are completely comfortable in the 2000-2500 range while cruising.
| LNXGUY |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/09/10 07:42 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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A 4-ish litre V8 should be running under 2500rpm's in 6th gear at that speed.
Maybe zee Germans geared it for zee Autobahn!!!!!
| Stock94si |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/09/10 07:53 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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at least you gave it a shot and are now wiser. i have a 90 mile round trip daily commute so i should be doing the two car thing, but i suspect i'd end up spending the same money for two pieces of shit.
| LNXGUY |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/09/10 08:11 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: Stock94si
at least you gave it a shot and are now wiser. i have a 90 mile round trip daily commute so i should be doing the two car thing, but i suspect i'd end up spending the same money for two pieces of shit.
*cough* TDI no brainer *cough*
| Stock94si |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/09/10 08:30 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: LNXGUY
Originally Posted By: Stock94si
at least you gave it a shot and are now wiser. i have a 90 mile round trip daily commute so i should be doing the two car thing, but i suspect i'd end up spending the same money for two pieces of shit.
*cough* TDI no brainer *cough*
Then i could spend 95% of my time in a car i hate, and the other 5% trying to convince my woman to ride in the loud shaking car that reeks of exhaust fumes.
| danl |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/09/10 08:41 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: Impulsive
Originally Posted By: danl
Peak engine fuel efficiency (BSFC) is at torque peak. If torque peak (at cruising engine load) is at 3500 then the gearing is correct.
Empirical fuel economy evidence disagrees. When you talk Peak engine efficiency, you are referring to WOT, not the 10% throttle required to maintain 75 mph.
FWIW, the G37 gets 3 mpg better on the highway - due to the extra gears in the trans. I would think we all know by now that overdrives work. Even BMW is touting good efficiency gains simply by going to the 8 speed auto over the 6.
See the part where I said "at cruising engine load". BSFC as a function of RPM relies on engine load.
Its kinda hard to argue that if you burn fuel more efficiently (higher BSFC) that you will maintain best fuel economy. LOL
| LNXGUY |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/09/10 08:41 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: Stock94si
Originally Posted By: LNXGUY
Originally Posted By: Stock94si
at least you gave it a shot and are now wiser. i have a 90 mile round trip daily commute so i should be doing the two car thing, but i suspect i'd end up spending the same money for two pieces of shit.
*cough* TDI no brainer *cough*
Then i could spend 95% of my time in a car i hate, and the other 5% trying to convince my woman to ride in the loud shaking car that reeks of exhaust fumes.
I didn't know the '10 Golf TDI's shook like crazy and reeked like exhaust.
You should probably approach VW corporate and let them know.
| danl |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/09/10 08:47 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Just so we are all on the same page:
"Brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC) is a measure of fuel efficiency within a shaft reciprocating engine. It is the rate of fuel consumption divided by the power produced. " -wikipedia
Yeah, I fucking quoted wikipedia. Anyways there is a rpm that the engine is most efficient at turning the combustion into torque. This changes with engine load. Just because WOT torque peak is 5000rpm doesn't mean that the torque peak at 10 in/hg is 5000rpm. Think about it......
Its not about airflow people. Its about quality air and fuel preparation in the combustion chamber.
| Impulsive |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/10/10 01:17 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: danl
Its kinda hard to argue that if you burn fuel more efficiently (higher BSFC) that you will maintain best fuel economy. LOL
LOL? Like you have inside knowledge of the 10% throttle open dyno peak torque on an Audi S4? No V8 car is at peak efficiency at 3500 on the highway and the real world proves that.
| Impulsive |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/10/10 01:31 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: danl
Anyways there is a rpm that the engine is most efficient at turning the combustion into torque. This changes with engine load. Just because WOT torque peak is 5000rpm doesn't mean that the torque peak at 10 in/hg is 5000rpm. Think about it......
You clearly said BSFC was at the engines torque peak or "cruising" torque peak. Not decent sized V8 is going to get better economy at 3500 than 2500 on the highway - hence the word empirical.
| ElectronVTEC2 |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/10/10 08:21 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Wow, this turned into quite the conversation
I learned quite a bit through this experience and I shouldn't say I'm done with German cars forever, I'm just done with making piss-poor decisions for awhile. On the 3500 RPM deal - I don't remember the exact RPM for cruising down the highway in 6th, but the Audi was definitely geared more like a Honda than I think it should have been. Little 1.7L motors need gearing to make up for lack of torque, 4.2 V8's do not. I was actually amazed at the lack of off-idle torque and I never understood why. I expect a V8, even a relatively small one, to have some neck-snapping torque even at low RPM but the Audi was most definitely a midrange machine. It worked out fine in the end I guess, I just think my expectations were off.
Todd
| danl |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/10/10 08:28 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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I don't have inside knowledge and never claimed to. I'm merely providing a possible explanation as to why the gearing is the way it is. If the cylinder heads, intake manifold, etc. are geared for high flow performance then you are going to have to rev it a bit higher to burn fuel efficiently. I stated that in my first post, read it again.
| Stock94si |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/10/10 09:09 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: LNXGUY
Originally Posted By: Stock94si
Originally Posted By: LNXGUY
Originally Posted By: Stock94si
at least you gave it a shot and are now wiser. i have a 90 mile round trip daily commute so i should be doing the two car thing, but i suspect i'd end up spending the same money for two pieces of shit.
*cough* TDI no brainer *cough*
Then i could spend 95% of my time in a car i hate, and the other 5% trying to convince my woman to ride in the loud shaking car that reeks of exhaust fumes.
I didn't know the '10 Golf TDI's shook like crazy and reeked like exhaust.
You should probably approach VW corporate and let them know.
The TDI would be the car I hate. The 'other car' would be the one loud stinky one
| Euphoricuck |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/10/10 12:00 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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the s4 isnt so much a high end screamer....
fwiw my turd is revving relatively high on the highway and i still get 27 mpg(hwy).
ill get exact rpm/spd later.
| NOT spotch... |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/10/10 12:07 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Quote:
but as ive always said...for most cars you wont see a huge increase in fuel consumption from a little bit of extra revs. like all those who whine about hondas revving high on the highway. giving it another gear that dropped the revs 1k or more(for example) would probably make it drink more fuel since it would need more load (throttle) to maintain the same speed since it makes lower torch.
Yeah, but I don't think it's a coincidence that of the 1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 1.8 liter hondas I've owned, the gas mileage they got was strongly correlated with the RPM they spun at 70~ mph (the 1.7 did better than the 1.6, 1.5, and 1.8, and spun at an even lower rpm than all 3). My 2.0 neon got slightly worse gas mileage than the 1.7 (but better than the 1.5/1.6/1.8) and had *very* similar gearing and rpms/mph. Neons with the .81 fifth gear instead of my weak ass .72 got noticeably worse gas mileage than I did (but were way better at passing on the highway lol) The prelude, otoh, at 3000++ rpm at 70mph, sucked ass in the gas mileage dept. ton of throttle response on the highway/great passing power, but drank fuel like whoa. In my experience, it takes *very* little tq to cruise at ~70mph in a relatively lightweight vehicle with a half decent cd and a non-huge frontal area. The problem is, it's not exactly fun to drive something making just enough power to efficiently maintain a 70mph cruise. We hate having to downshift to pass someone, we just want to press the pedal and blow everyone off the road. If audi gave the s4 a true fuel sipper 6th gear, every mag on the planet would scream out in disgust. "OMG THE REV DROP TO 6TH AND THE LACK OF POWER IS UNBEARABLE!"
just my experience though lol
| grkthugisback |
| (Jr Poster) |
| 10/10/10 01:15 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: danl
EV, your story is the same as every other German car owner I know. My uncle has had good luck with BMW's, that is as long as he trades it in before the factory warranty is up. BMW has even been good about paying for taxi rides to get him home when his BMW shuts off on him for reasons even the dealership can't understand why.
My aunt was $11,000 in the hole before she gave up on her Audi. She got an Infinity and couldn't be happier.
My aunt was $11,000 in the hole before she gave up on her Audi. She got an Infinity and couldn't be happier.
EV I say take a break and relax bro . Save some money , And REALLY drive around and see what you wanna get with time . Before I bought the Cayenne I went to see Mercedes S550,BMW M6,Maseratti Quattroporte I mean i drove everything and asked myself DO I WANT THIS FOR SURE ? Can it do what i need it to ? want it to ? Can it be driven in the snow ? Does it handle well in the rain ? Fucked up weather conditions you know ? Im putting my family in there my wife n kids need to be safe , they need room , and then you gotta satisfy YOUR own taste . Is it fast enough ? How does it perform ? how does it handle ? Does it look nice ? Will i enjoy driving it everyday or 4 times a week ? does this car look good with me in it ? So many things you gotta look into man , Thats why the Cayenne was so natural for me when I drove it . It did it ALL and im SO happy with this fucking thing . my 911 gave me all the thrills i wanted with its 600HP . Ask me if i would drive it in the snow ? lol NEVer , Rain ? like if its overcast I wont take it out . The Cayenne i take out thru any conditions man . Thats what it ALL comes down to . Can you afford it and does it meet EVERY STANDARD .. Take your time bro and make the RIGHT choice for you . No one can tell you how to spend your money they all got their own opinion .
| ElectronVTEC2 |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/10/10 01:46 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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To spotch's point - I had two reasons for picking the auto in a Civic over a 5MT - the wife just refuses to learn how to drive a manual and i really don't care to try and teach someone who doesn't want to learn but more importantly, the gas mileage in the auto is better with the auto thanks to the gearing. I'm not really in a "hurry" when I drive the civic so the fact that it is slow as balls doesn't really matter to me
Todd
| Euphoricuck |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/10/10 01:48 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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my car does 3300 rpm @ 75 mph
Si was at 4000 rpm.
to lazy to calculate the dsm.
both get/got decent mileage on the hwy...nevermind the fact I rarely go 75 mph lol 90.
You cant just compare different engines/yrs from gear ratios alone. engines designs are different, some tech has evolved for mpg etc....
| NOT spotch... |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/10/10 02:09 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: Euphoric
my car does 3300 rpm @ 75 mph
Si was at 4000 rpm.
to lazy to calculate the dsm.
both get/got decent mileage on the hwy...nevermind the fact I rarely go 75 mph lol 90.
You cant just compare different engines/yrs from gear ratios alone. engines designs are different, some tech has evolved for mpg etc....
Si was at 4000 rpm.
to lazy to calculate the dsm.
both get/got decent mileage on the hwy...nevermind the fact I rarely go 75 mph lol 90.
You cant just compare different engines/yrs from gear ratios alone. engines designs are different, some tech has evolved for mpg etc....
Ok, so just comparing a 98 neon with a .72 fifth gear to one with a .81, the .72 is going to be the mileage master even though it will be way slower when you punch it on the highway. Juuuust enough to cruise. (same way with my 1.7 civic... funny how the tallest geared cars I've owned, with the least gearing advantage at 70~mph, were also the best mpg-getting cars I've owned by a mile... like mid-high 40s vs 40 flat or worse
).But, like I said, cars that feel weak cruising at 70mph in 5th will be hated on. And on a test drive? Forget it. Get it out on the highway and the first thing you'd hear would be "OMG ITS SO SLOW". The mags/buyers/etc feel the slowness of the tall top gear, and don't realize that top gear isn't for highway roll-on racing, it's for gas mileage. I mean shit, that's one of the comparison tests for the mags... '50-70mph top gear passing time' or whatever. My neon and my 05 civic were in great pain accelerating at 50mph in top gear... terrible. But that's the price you pay for making 65-75 your cruising 'sweet spot'.
Think about it...a test drive is 20-30~ mins... long enough to feel the 'weakness' cruising on the highway, but not nearly long enough so you'll see yourself saving a ton at the pump over the long term.
| NOT spotch... |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/10/10 02:14 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: ElectronVTEC2
To spotch's point - I had two reasons for picking the auto in a Civic over a 5MT - the wife just refuses to learn how to drive a manual and i really don't care to try and teach someone who doesn't want to learn but more importantly, the gas mileage in the auto is better with the auto thanks to the gearing. I'm not really in a "hurry" when I drive the civic so the fact that it is slow as balls doesn't really matter to me
Todd
Todd
The EX does make a little more power than the LX, so that should help with the slowness. I'd be surprised if you're hitting 45+mpg in it, but still, anything 40 or more is fucking awesome.
| UglyValiant |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/10/10 04:13 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: spotch
Ok, so just comparing a 98 neon with a .72 fifth gear to one with a .81, the .72 is going to be the mileage master even though it will be way slower when you punch it on the highway.
My opinion of what's important for most efficient rpm for a given engine in a given car is this is short form: For a given car, the highest gear ratio that will allow it to cruise at typical cruising speeds at the lowest rpm/highest engine load while still being able to run w/ a lean A/F ratio. Different engines in the same car will have different points, likewise same engine different cars will have vastly different points.
| Euphoricuck |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/10/10 04:35 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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and a civic vx would dust you in mpg. you cant just compare gear ratios. there is more to it than that. thats all my pt is.
stick a 6th gear in the 99 Si and it wouldve gotten worse mileage for sure. One just has to look at a fuel map to see that load means more than rpm does. (in terms of fuel usage)
look when they went to the 6 spd in the k ...the didnt slam the ratio to some retarded low rpm. they kept it up...for a reason. Engines geared more towards higher rpm performance wont lug along in lower rpm as efficiently as an engine thats had more design consideration for that range.
my gfs dx was dog slow in 5th on the highway(i know what you mean) but it didnt get a boatload more mpg on the highway compared to my Si. it was better but not huge amt. and it had more to do with the engine design than the rpm it sat at on the highway. comparing hp/spd difference between the two and then mpg difference. was hardly a similar ratio. the b series did better(mpg) for its output imo.
same with the 1.7 civic. did better than the old dx's not because it revved lower.(which it didnt actually) its motor was just better designed for that purpose.
never mind aero,weight etc.
| Euphoricuck |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/10/10 04:37 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: UglyValiant
For a given car, the highest gear ratio that will allow it to cruise at typical cruising speeds at the lowest rpm/highest engine load while still being able to run w/ a lean A/F ratio. Different engines in the same car will have different points, likewise same engine different cars will have vastly different points.
give certain engines to low of a ratio and you need more load to move the car while cruising, thus using more gas.
load has a bigger effect on mpg than an extra 1000 rpms do.
| NOT spotch... |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/10/10 04:41 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Quote:
Don't forget, neons w/ .72 5th gears used a 3.55:1 differential while the .81 5th gears used a 3.91 diff...making the disparity even greater.
The sports+expressos had the 3.94/.72 mix... perfection for the less torquey DOHC imho.
| NOT spotch... |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/10/10 04:50 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Quote:
same with the 1.7 civic. did better than the old dx's not because it revved lower.(which it didnt actually) its motor was just better designed for that purpose.
I wasn't really comparing it to the old DX's, but whatevs. I'm just saying, I have yet to drive a car that was geared 'too tall' for the expressway. And across the board, the lower the cars I've had have revved at 70~, the better gas mileage I've gotten. I attribute it mostly to the fact that most auto makers don't have the guts to sell cars with TRUE overdrives because they know that a max fuel mileage top gear is going to be painfully slow for overtaking. And frankly, it's kinda fun to be able to tap the gas and get instant results.
I'm sure if I had dropped that 1.7s gearing any lower it would've hurt because you could tell it was pretty much running the bare minimum gearing for the amt of tq the motor was making, just shy of me having to give it extra gas (which would've negated the lower rpms) but as-is, it was pretty perfect (as was the neon).
| Euphoricuck |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/10/10 06:02 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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its a balance between passing power in top gear and mpg for the audi , more than likely.
| NOT spotch... |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/10/10 09:45 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: Euphoric
its a balance between passing power in top gear and mpg for the audi , more than likely.
INDEED
Well, and they're making it for people with enough money that 3-4mpg shouldn't mean shit to them in the first place. They're not making it for us cheapasses that want to pick these things up on the used market as a sporty alternative to a normal civic type car.
| Euphoricuck |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/10/10 09:59 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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I dont even think it would be that much of a difference...but you are spot on with that.
its made for people with deep pockets. not hypermilers drafting semi's.
| LNXGUY |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/10/10 11:16 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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The closer you are to the torque peak while cruising will give you better mileage.
Shit, there are guys that running .658's in TDI's because they want better mpgs, they gain about 10-12% on mileage because of it..
It's all about the torque curve.
| FCobra94 |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/11/10 08:51 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: Euphoric
like all those who whine about hondas revving high on the highway. giving it another gear that dropped the revs 1k or more(for example) would probably make it drink more fuel since it would need more load (throttle) to maintain the same speed since it makes lower torch.
Not true. My Si spins @ 4K RPM when doing 75 too. When owners drop in an RSX 6th gear cog into the stock Si trans (no change to final drive) they see a consistant gain of 2 mpg on the highway.
Originally Posted By: Impulsive
The right car is worth a few bucks at fill up...Shit, my G35 gets about 24-25 highway when driven nicely, but 16-17 in the city.
I tend to agree with this, but that decision gets harder when you see motors like the new Mustang's V6 putting down more power and returning 30+ mpg on the highway.
| ElectronVTEC2 |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/11/10 01:56 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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I absolutely agree that the S4 was worth its weight in gas, but it was one of those deals where the gas mileage was just one piece of the pie, unfortunately. Even if I had deeper pockets, there are still better values out there and plus, I really do like working on my own cars and well, the S4 isn't a car that a novice mechanic has much business digging into. And FCobra is 100% right - the game is changing with respect to what is acceptable when trading performance for practicality/economy. I did not buy the S4 with gas mileage as a selling point, but 17 mpg on the highway under optimum conditions is just retarded :). The sad part in all of this is that I should have just not fixed the cooling issue - I would have saved money on the repair, the car ran better before the fix, and it got better mileage. FML
Todd
| Euphoricuck |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/11/10 02:02 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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if you dont like working on your own cars or dont have deep pockets you shouldnt buy a used german sports car.
and fcobra your car is a 2.0L..thats also less designed to high rpm fun(compared to the a2 or z1..or 16a2/18c)
2mpg isnt much....and I was mostly referring to the 99/00. I dont think it would handle a longer 5th(or a long 6th)to well. it would likely be the same(but with less punch) or get even less mpg because the revs would be to low. Even for those cars its a balance of throttle response in top gear(ya you read that right. I didnt HAVE to downshift to pass on the highway) and mpg.
As for newer cars...of course the blend of power and mpg gets better with techMOLOGY and as the yrs go on. I wouldnt worry about it to be honest.
used 20k car that has 300 hp and gets 25 mpg
is better than having a monthly payment on a new (higher % Depreciating) car that has 300 hp but gets 30 mpg...
that extra mpg doesnt even come close to offsetting the money you save buying the used car.
| NOT spotch... |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/11/10 04:26 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: LNXGUY
The closer you are to the torque peak while cruising will give you better mileage.
Shit, there are guys that running .658's in TDI's because they want better mpgs, they gain about 10-12% on mileage because of it..
It's all about the torque curve.
Shit, there are guys that running .658's in TDI's because they want better mpgs, they gain about 10-12% on mileage because of it..
It's all about the torque curve.
I think this is probably more true for diesels or something... I have a feeling if I drove an s2k or an ls1 fbody or even my mazda 3 at their actual tq peaks, I'd be burning a *fuckload* more gas than if I was cruising at their overdrive gears, barely touching the gas pedal at a low-ish rpm to maintain speed.
| grkthugisback |
| (Jr Poster) |
| 10/11/10 11:42 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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40 mpg is FUCKING awesome lol .
| Vogz |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/13/10 06:19 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: Euphoric
its a balance between passing power in top gear and mpg for the audi , more than likely.
Maybe, but 3500rpm @75mph is REALLY high for a 4.2L V8
For comparison my S60R turns 2700rpm in 6th @ 75mph and still has PLENTY of passing power with it's 2.5L I5T. I get around 29-30mpg @ 70-75mph.
My R is going 97mph @ 3500rpm in 6th.
| LNXGUY |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/13/10 06:49 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: spotch
Originally Posted By: LNXGUY
The closer you are to the torque peak while cruising will give you better mileage.
Shit, there are guys that running .658's in TDI's because they want better mpgs, they gain about 10-12% on mileage because of it..
It's all about the torque curve.
Shit, there are guys that running .658's in TDI's because they want better mpgs, they gain about 10-12% on mileage because of it..
It's all about the torque curve.
I think this is probably more true for diesels or something... I have a feeling if I drove an s2k or an ls1 fbody or even my mazda 3 at their actual tq peaks, I'd be burning a *fuckload* more gas than if I was cruising at their overdrive gears, barely touching the gas pedal at a low-ish rpm to maintain speed.
Yeah, you're most likely correct. I've been spoiled with cruising at 2k rpms
| NOT spotch... |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/13/10 07:40 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: LNXGUY
Originally Posted By: spotch
Originally Posted By: LNXGUY
The closer you are to the torque peak while cruising will give you better mileage.
Shit, there are guys that running .658's in TDI's because they want better mpgs, they gain about 10-12% on mileage because of it..
It's all about the torque curve.
Shit, there are guys that running .658's in TDI's because they want better mpgs, they gain about 10-12% on mileage because of it..
It's all about the torque curve.
I think this is probably more true for diesels or something... I have a feeling if I drove an s2k or an ls1 fbody or even my mazda 3 at their actual tq peaks, I'd be burning a *fuckload* more gas than if I was cruising at their overdrive gears, barely touching the gas pedal at a low-ish rpm to maintain speed.
Yeah, you're most likely correct. I've been spoiled with cruising at 2k rpms
Yeah, everything is fucking jacked in Diesel Land. I remember driving my dad's Cummins and the trick was basically keeping it as close to idle as possible to get maximum gas mileage
| PurduinaSi |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/15/10 08:19 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Wow, was it really that bad?? You've had it for less than 3-4 months, right?
I've been tossing around the idea of trading the USP in for one, and knew the gas mileage wasn't going to be nearly as good, but wow... Can't believe you traded it for a civic!
| MrManGuy |
| (Poster) |
| 10/21/10 08:29 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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What you needed was an 04-05 A4 1.8T 6 speed with the Ultra Sport Package -- essentially an S4 with shitty brakes and the 4.2 swapped out for the 1.8T. Injectors and a tune make for an APR claimed 235hp at the crank. Exhaust and a test pipe are probably worth another 20hp. It's not S4 punchy, but it moves pretty good and gets over 30mpg on the highway easy. The 1.8T is also much cheaper to maintain and much easier to work on.
Speaking of the gear ratios/fuel efficiency discussion, I have some real world evidence. I own an 02 A4 1.8T Quattro 5 speed and my buddy owns an 04 A4 1.8T Quattro with the 6 speed, both APR tuned -- identical car, same exact engine, only difference being the extra gear. Here are the ratios:
2002 5 Speed
1st 3.778:1
2nd 2.176:1
3rd 1.429.1
4th 1.091:1
5th 0.865:1
R 3.700:1
2004 6 Speed
1st 3.667:1
2nd 2.053:1
3rd 1.423:1
4th 1.032:1
5th 0.800:1
6th 0.658:1
R 3.889:1
Gears 1-5 are pretty similar. IIRC, the RPM difference is 800-1000 at highway speeds. The 5 speed is rated for 29 on the highway, the 6 speed 30. At speeds of 60-65, the difference is pretty small, 1-2mpg if that, as indicated by the ratings. The difference shows up as speeds increase. Beyond 70, my car really struggles to get the 29mpg, and really starts to dip below that at 75+ (It's turning 4k at 80). On the other hand, the 6 speed car can do 75 all day and get 32-33mpg.
I suppose that is only a ~15% difference but it shows that it can make a difference. I would think that a V8 car would have enough torque that they could elongate the ratios without losing performance.
| PurduinaSi |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/21/10 08:33 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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OP should have just traded his S4 to me for my USP
| ElectronVTEC2 |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/21/10 11:33 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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I'll get back to a "fun toy" before too long. Don't get me wrong, the S4 is a badass car/machine, but it just wasn't a great fit for my lifestyle at the moment. I underestimated what the true cost of ownership was going to be and while I can afford it, it wouldn't leave much leftover for saving and paying off other debt and stuff. After three weeks without it, I am positive I made the right decision and so is my bank account
I think my next car experience will be back in the land of Asian imports, or possibly a little American muscle, we'll see Todd
| FCobra94 |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/21/10 12:10 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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How reliable has your wife's car been? My parents have an '00 as well and after ~90K miles, an 02 sensor, and a $2 passanger side door lock motor, it's been pretty solid.
| UglyValiant |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/21/10 12:49 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Diesels operate on a different plane altogether, not because of where they make their torque peak or anything...but they don't respond to higher loads the same way as a gas engine does.
At a light engine load, a gas engine can run fairly lean AFR's...but once a load is introduced, the AFR's have to get progressively richer to a point to avoid detonation.
Diesel, on the the other hand, requires spontaneous combustion...IE detonation for the gas engine. So one CAN load down/lug a diesel engine without going from 16-17:1 AFR down to a 12.5:1 AFR like a gas engine,IE, burning significantly more fuel.
Torque peak is where the engine makes it's most power efficiently...and at WOT, utilizes gas most efficiently. But when going for fuel economy, we are not at WOT...so buzzing around in a Hemi Ram @ 4000 rpm is NOT the most efficient way to travel down the hwy.
Here's how I look at it:
We'll use a Generic car with a 5.0 v8, 4 speed auto w/ 1:1 third and a .7 4th gear, w/ 3.08 rear-end w/ 28inch tires. This engine produces 300ft-lbs of torque at 2500rpm.
Let's use a cruising speed of 75 mph.
In third gear, it's cruising rpm is rounded up to 2700rpm. In 4th, it's 2000rpm.
Okay, so it's torque peak is more closely achieved in third gear...right? But then why ever have a 4th gear...wouldn't this make it's fuel mileage always worse in pretty much every driving situation? What were those dumb engineers thinking?
It really has everything to do with what the engine is doing dynamically. We all know that as compression goes up, we generally associate that with an increase in power...right? It takes the same volume of air, same mixture of gas, and yet yields increased power...this is due in part to the quicker/more aggressive burn characteristics of the mixture under higher pressures.
When we are at low load/mostly closed throttle situations, this 5.0 v8 is NOT displacing 5.0 liters every two engine revolutions. The throttle body is restricting airflow, so perhaps it's only displacing 1.8 or 2.0 liters every two revolutions...how do we know this? Look simply to the HP formula!
We all know that a car doesn't need 225hp to maintain 75mph down the hwy, right? No...the actual figure is probably around 70hp or so for this generic, nameless car. It has to overcome basically air and mechanical drag, and at those speeds, we'll for the sake of argument just call it 70hp....
So, how much torque is it producing at 70hp? Well, in third gear, when the engine is spinning at 2700rpm, the torque required to produce 70 hp is roughly 136 ft-lbs. The same HP is need whether it's in 4th or 3rd, so 70hp while spinning at 2000 rpm requires the engine to produce 184 ft-lbs of torque.
So what's happening? The same power is being produced...therefore one can envision how the same amount of air/fuel is being burned in the same minute. But, in the lower revving engine, more air and fuel is being processed per engine stroke. So every time that piston is moving up during the compression stroke, there is a higher dynamic compression being generated, so power is being more efficiently generated...so slightly less fuel/air is needed to produce the same amount of power. This is the why/how engines using cylinder deactivation see any advantage...
Of course, this assumes that there is no penalty to pay by having to overcome 35% more revolutions per minute and the drag/windage within the engine itself and the various accessories driven by the engine. Of course, in the real world, that's not the case, and this only favors the lower rpm engine more.
As long as the loads are not so great that one can't go from an advantageous AFR to a rich one to avoid detonation, the lower the rpm one can get, usually the better. Diesels of course benefit from the same low rpms not because they usually produce their peak torque at low rpms, but because when running the low rpms they develop better dynamic compression, less mechanical drag/pumping losses, AND don't have to offset higher loads with richer AFRs.
And that generic car should be one of the easiest ones in the world to identify
| ElectronVTEC2 |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/22/10 11:35 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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The RX has been a tank. It's an appliance, but it's been the most reliable car I've ever owned. Had to replace one coil pack, but otherwise it's just been general maintenance which, all told, has been very reasonable.
Todd
| bren si |
| (Post Master) |
| 10/22/10 02:35 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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With so much ranting about cost/mileage and other things that normal S4 owners do not even think about. I think your biggest dilemma was not being ready for fun car or german car ownership.
| ElectronVTEC2 |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/24/10 10:07 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Not being ready for a fun car? That's BS, but I would totally agree that I wasn't "ready" for the ass-raping of German car dealers. The S4 is wonderful, but woefully overcomplicated...
Todd
| bren si |
| (Post Master) |
| 10/25/10 11:14 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: ElectronVTEC2
Not being ready for a fun car? That's BS, but I would totally agree that I wasn't "ready" for the ass-raping of German car dealers. The S4 is wonderful, but woefully overcomplicated...
Todd
Todd
It's painfully obvious. I'd stick to warrantied commuters and Japanese gas sippers if I were you.
| ElectronVTEC2 |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/25/10 02:47 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Not sure what you're on lately, but I haven't had a warrantied car since I bought my new Si in 1999. Since then I've had several fun cars and have done most, if not all, of my own work on them.
Not sure why you fail to get this, but I did not buy the S4 for it's gas mileage ratings. But when life throws you a little curveball and all of a sudden acceptable MPG practicality turns into "you'll be paying almost $60 a week for gas", well things change. I have a car now that works for what I need - a practical, reliable car to get me from A to B. And next summer, I'll pick up something I'm more comfortable working on myself. And I'm happy knowing I hardly spend $60 a month in gas now, instead of $60 a week. I don't care who you are or how much money you have - that kind of ownership cost adjustment is going to change how you feel about a car, no matter how fun it is to drive or how luxurious it is. Get off your German car high horse for once, if that's even possible.
Todd
| Euphoricuck |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/25/10 02:53 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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and you pay cheap gas.
i was filling my tank every 4 days @ $70 (was commuting quite far). thank goodness I dont do that commute anymore.
STi is about $60 a week. Gas cost a lot more here though
| PurduinaSi |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/25/10 07:51 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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You bought a performance car with a V8... what else did you expect??
Gas is more expensive on certain cars, but that certainly doesn't take away from the fun factor - it's the fun factor that makes it worth it. If you're so strapped for cash that you can't afford $60/wk in gas, then an S4 isn't the car for you. Glad you found something that better fits your budget...
Just out of curiosity, how much of a hit exactly did you take when after you bought a car and then traded it back in a few months later? Retail on that car is quite a bit higher than its' trade-in value..
| NOT spotch... |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/26/10 07:44 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Guys, he's said numerous times that the gas was only a small part of the equation. It was a piece of shit that broke within weeks of him buying it, followed by a horrendous dealer experience. That would put a foul taste in the mouth of anyone but a fanboi that thinks that owning a piece of shit with shitty dealer support is like some kind of cool initiation into a fraternity for shitily built german car owners.
| PurduinaSi |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/26/10 08:39 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: spotch
Guys, he's said numerous times that the gas was only a small part of the equation. It was a piece of shit that broke within weeks of him buying it, followed by a horrendous dealer experience. That would put a foul taste in the mouth of anyone but a fanboi that thinks that owning a piece of shit with shitty dealer support is like some kind of cool initiation into a fraternity for shitily built german car owners.
It's a shitty car because it was underheating due to a stuck thermostat? Usually when a car won't heat up, that's the first thing you check. And just because an older german car requires some elbow grease from time to time, does not make it a "shitily built unreliable POS". If you don't care about having fun in your car, buy a civic or a mazda 3 and just go from point A to point B. If you don't mind getting dirty every once in a while, german cars will give you a much better driving experience and will be much more rewarding.
And anyone who is part of our exclusive fraternity for german cars knows not to take an out of warranty Audi to the dealer
| Euphoricuck |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/26/10 09:21 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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a civic is no fun?
now your just being retarded
| Impulsive |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/26/10 09:51 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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I thought he had to get rid of it more for unforeseens life events than a few bucks in gas. I'd fully expect to have a few repairs on any car out of warranty. Even cheap cars can have pretty big repair bills depending on the issue, so several hundred for some cooling issues isn't much in the grand scheme of things.
| Euphoricuck |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/26/10 10:02 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Ya I think it was a bunch of things(including paying down debt...you know what majority of real working folks and property owners have to deal with) that led him to deciding that maybe it wasnt such a good idea after all.
| NOT spotch... |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/26/10 11:46 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: PurduinaSi
It's a shitty car because it was underheating due to a stuck thermostat?
Yup. Thermostats aren't hard to get right (just like subframes and fuel pumps aren't, I'm looking at you BMW... mounting suspensions to cars so they don't just tear off isn't supposed to be epically impossible). I've owned cars from new to 250k and 15+ years old, all for at least a year, and have yet to have a thermostat stick open. Let alone on a well-maintained car with relatively low miles after just buying it. Don't act like this is some kind of freak occurrence and that otherwise Audis are bulletproof. A breakdown in the first few weeks of ownership from a car widely recognized to have reliability flaws, and a horrible dealer experience following such a simple repair, are enough to sour the average person.
Quote:
an older german car requires some elbow grease from time to time, does not make it a "shitily built unreliable POS".
A 6 year old car just coming off a CPO warranty and great maintenance, with low miles, shouldn't require a bunch of elbow grease. At first your 'older german car' statement made me do a doubletake, but then I remembered that they're considered "older" the minute the warranty expires, as opposed to when they get high mileage or hit the ~10 year mark.
Quote:
If you don't care about having fun in your car, buy a civic or a mazda 3 and just go from point A to point B.
Exactly, it's either piece of shit or japanese econobox. There are absolutely no other options.
Quote:
And anyone who is part of our exclusive fraternity for german cars knows not to take an out of warranty Audi to the dealer
Yeah, ruling out the possibility adds to the mystique and the l337ness of it. *tugs at suspenders* "Best cars ever, as long as you're ready to get yer hands dirty! You can't take it to none o' them dealers... you gotta be man enough to fix it yourself, in the gravel, when it's 20 below outside, uphill both ways".
M3s and S4s are awesome cars, but it's stupid to fault someone for not wanting to spend a bunch of money on a headache.
| ElectronVTEC2 |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/26/10 12:21 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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In total, this experience cost me around $1500. I sold the car for a little more than I bought it for, but had to pay for plates, some basic maintenance (fluids, plugs), and then the dealer debacle. If you haven't read about my dealer experience, suffice it to say that I knew I was taking a risk with them looking at it, but in other *very* similar cases, owners were either getting the TSB describing my issue comped by Audi, or at worst they were out $400-ish to fix the hose described by the TSB. What I did not see happening was a dealer that took the customer for close to $1000 for what really amounted to a basic repair.
Unfortunately, I knew I made a mistake a week after I bought it and it started acting up. I had that old "it won't happen to me" attitude but it did, and who knows, maybe that would have been the only problem I ever had with it and I could have driven it happily for the next few years. Buuuuut I wasn't going to take that chance. I'm in a perfectly fine financial state to pay for gas (yes, even at $60/wk), insurance, car payment, blah blah blah, but when you start throwing the prospect of these kinds of repairs in there, my willingness to pay the premium on all other parts of the car goes down substantially. So, I did the math and found that getting into a gas-saver Civic saves me, oh around $450 per month. That buys a *lot* of car, but more importantly right now it pays off debt much more quickly.
I was impatient, saw a "cheap" price on the S4, and just didn't consider all of the other factors that go into the ownership of a car like this. I will absolutely not talk shit, or say the S4 is a bad car whatsoever, and I don't think that I have. It's just not a good fit for me right now, and unfortunately the shit with the dealer has really soured me on Audis in general.
Another way to look at this is to say "You should have just bought this thing CPO" which has a lot of merit, but when I priced out CPO S4's like the one I bought, they were $8000 higher than what I paid for mine to begin with. If I ever get back into a german sports car, you can be damn sure it will be under a manufacturer's CPO warranty, without a doubt. Live and learn, right? These kinds of purchases are all about what kind of risk tolerance you have, and unfortunately mine was lower than the risk I ended up taking on, plain and simple. It cost me money to learn that lesson - but it could have cost me much more had I not decided to just cut my losses and get out of it.
Todd
| NOT spotch... |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/26/10 01:00 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Quote:
These kinds of purchases are all about what kind of risk tolerance you have, and unfortunately mine was lower than the risk I ended up taking on, plain and simple.
I think that's a good way to put it.
| cliff st-clair |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/26/10 05:38 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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What puzzles me in this dilemma is that the extra warranty he bought did not cover the repair. When I bought my Z it was used and out of manufacturer warranty after a year of ownership, my windows regulators broke and my extended aftermarket warranty covered the $800 bill, even though I had to go out of pocket first. So for them not to cover a cooling issue for Todd's car just tells me someone's been had really bad.
I would not have gone near an S4 or M3 if I knew I wasn't covered for repairs years after I bought it, because they're just not an easy car to work on and it's not going to be cheap to have people work on them.
Hey, but you live an learn, mistakes happen. If the car ownership experience turned him off that bad, selling it was the 100% right thing to do.
| ElectronVTEC2 |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/26/10 05:55 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Cliff - chalk this one up to "Learn to read the fine print, dumbass" kind of a move with the warranty. Now, with that said, I only bought it to cover the infamous "8 mile chain" issues they can have, so I wasn't at all shocked when a little cooling hose wasn't covered. Remember, from a typical manufacturer, i'd bet that hose would cost, at most, $50. From Audi? $250, and it takes three hours to install. And it needed an adapter. And it wasn't the entire issue. And... yea, like you said, lesson learned
Todd
| HungWeiLo007 |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/26/10 06:06 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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I see a lot of those commercials now where they cover the repairs of your car. Is this worth it? If you had this, would you still be driving the S4?
| danl |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/26/10 06:14 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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German cars are like McDonalds. Everybody knows they are bad for you but they still buy them!
| Euphoricuck |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/26/10 09:03 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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m3's are easy to work on...
e36/e46 talkin. no clue on the 90/92.
| PurduinaSi |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/27/10 08:23 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: spotch
Originally Posted By: PurduinaSi
It's a shitty car because it was underheating due to a stuck thermostat?
Yup. Thermostats aren't hard to get right (just like subframes and fuel pumps aren't, I'm looking at you BMW... mounting suspensions to cars so they don't just tear off isn't supposed to be epically impossible). I've owned cars from new to 250k and 15+ years old, all for at least a year, and have yet to have a thermostat stick open. Let alone on a well-maintained car with relatively low miles after just buying it. Don't act like this is some kind of freak occurrence and that otherwise Audis are bulletproof. A breakdown in the first few weeks of ownership from a car widely recognized to have reliability flaws, and a horrible dealer experience following such a simple repair, are enough to sour the average person.
EVERY car maker has its faults and problems. Fact is, there are THOUSANDS of parts on every car, most of which are designed/manufactured by third party companies, and it's impossible for a car to be perfect and never have any parts fail. If a simple thermostat stuck open is the biggest issue in this case, then it's really not that big of a deal. It could have happened to any car.. I've had failed thermostats in my Civic, Integra, and my M3. If the car is "widely recognized to have reliability flaws", then it really should have came as no surprise when it "broke down in the first few weeks of ownership"; It should have been expected.
Originally Posted By: spotch
Quote:
an older german car requires some elbow grease from time to time, does not make it a "shitily built unreliable POS".
A 6 year old car just coming off a CPO warranty and great maintenance, with low miles, shouldn't require a bunch of elbow grease. At first your 'older german car' statement made me do a doubletake, but then I remembered that they're considered "older" the minute the warranty expires, as opposed to when they get high mileage or hit the ~10 year mark.
Really? Obviously the term "older" is all relative. I run a Pre-Owned department, and anything older than 07-08 is older to me now. Cars with 25-30k miles off lease or traded in 2-3 years old will sell easily, and can be sold with few repairs as almost a new car. An 02-05 is hardly newer, and usually require much more reconditioning and take a bit longer to sell. I'm not just speaking of German cars, but rather all makes. Again, it's all relative. And I didn't say "a bunch of elbow grease" so don't put words in my mouth. I said from time to time; and yes, ANY car out of warranty should be expected to need to have repairs FROM TIME TO TIME.
Originally Posted By: spotch
Quote:
If you don't care about having fun in your car, buy a civic or a mazda 3 and just go from point A to point B.
Exactly, it's either piece of shit or japanese econobox. There are absolutely no other options.
Who said there are no other options? I'm saying that if you don't have the financial resources to cover gas/repairs/etc then a "fun" car is not for you. Anybody on this forum can tell you that you'll end up spending more money on mods/repairs/whatever on a sports car than you will on ANY Japanese econobox commuter. (unless you're Euphoric
) Originally Posted By: spotch
Quote:
And anyone who is part of our exclusive fraternity for german cars knows not to take an out of warranty Audi to the dealer
Yeah, ruling out the possibility adds to the mystique and the l337ness of it. *tugs at suspenders* "Best cars ever, as long as you're ready to get yer hands dirty! You can't take it to none o' them dealers... you gotta be man enough to fix it yourself, in the gravel, when it's 20 below outside, uphill both ways".
Again, I do this shit for a living. Seeing as though I work for a Mercedes-Benz dealership, I see all the upsales that go on in our service department. The service writers work off commission, they are salesman, and they get PAID to find things wrong with your car. Not just Audi, not just MB, but EVERY car dealership. This is common knowledge Spotch. Dealers are great for warranty work, but its practically common knowledge that you'll spend less money and probably get the same service if not better at a local indy shop rather than the dealership. I never said DIY in the cold on the floor blah blah blah, but if you think the dealer is the end all be all for repairs on cars, then I pity you...
Fact is, I own two "older" German cars, both of which have been dead reliable and never left me stranded. With the exception of a few smaller non important items, not much has gone wrong with either car, and they're so much more rewarding to drive than any econobox. Driving German cars is a luxury IMO, and should be expected to have a higher cost of ownership. Some people can justify this, others can't. Agree to disagree.
| NOT spotch... |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/27/10 10:12 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Quote:
If the car is "widely recognized to have reliability flaws", then it really should have came as no surprise when it "broke down in the first few weeks of ownership"; It should have been expected.
Yeah, even EV has said that he thought he could roll the dice and win, and didn't. I get the feeling he realizes that he should've expected it to be at least a little unreliable instead of expecting reliability just b/c it was in good shape and well maintained.
Quote:
Again, I do this shit for a living. Seeing as though I work for a Mercedes-Benz dealership, I see all the upsales that go on in our service department. The service writers work off commission, they are salesman, and they get PAID to find things wrong with your car. Not just Audi, not just MB, but EVERY car dealership. This is common knowledge Spotch. Dealers are great for warranty work, but its practically common knowledge that you'll spend less money and probably get the same service if not better at a local indy shop rather than the dealership. I never said DIY in the cold on the floor blah blah blah, but if you think the dealer is the end all be all for repairs on cars, then I pity you...
I don't think the dealer is the be-all end-all, but whenever there's a german car discussion it usually goes
"they break down a lot"
"not after you replace the cooling system and weld the rear suspension to the car and ..."
"I guess... but even taking it to the dealer is a hellish experience"
"well duh, you have to do all this yourself! only sissies go to dealers anyway! Once you buy a german car you're on your own, but that's how it should be anyway!"
I get it, but I also feel like going to a dealer should at least be an option for a DD. Especially when the car is potentially likely to need frequent repairs anyway.
Quote:
Driving German cars is a luxury IMO, and should be expected to have a higher cost of ownership. Some people can justify this, others can't. Agree to disagree.
I agree with this totally. We've all got different tolerances of what we've got time and patience to put up with in our daily drivers.
I think you and I agree with more than we think we do. I was just trying to point out that people are harping on his gas mileage comment and I was trying to point out that it was more than just gas mileage (some of the stuff we've said and he's said since).
| Impulsive |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/27/10 10:24 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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The issue with a lot of people is they have nice cars and many local mechanics aren't exactly known as trustworthy, smart or competent to work on the latest/greatest car and they often don't have the required parts.
Luxury dealers like to brag about their service being a luxury experience. So most people expect at least a professional atmosphere and their car fixed right. This is why people go to the dealers.
| PurduinaSi |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/27/10 12:00 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: Impulsive
The issue with a lot of people is they have nice cars and many local mechanics aren't exactly known as trustworthy, smart or competent to work on the latest/greatest car and they often don't have the required parts.
Luxury dealers like to brag about their service being a luxury experience. So most people expect at least a professional atmosphere and their car fixed right. This is why people go to the dealers.
Luxury dealers like to brag about their service being a luxury experience. So most people expect at least a professional atmosphere and their car fixed right. This is why people go to the dealers.
Yes and no. Luxury experience as in we will pick up your car from your house/job/etc, drop off a 2011 courtesy loaner, bring your car to get an oil change, and then return it to you with a complimentary car wash. Or if you come in, you'll be greeted by our friendly valet, sit in our brand new service department with flat screens, coffee, and pastries etc. You won't recieve any of this at a local indy shop. However, that's what you're paying for. Neither shop will do a better job than the other at replacing a thermostat, you'll just be pampered at the dealer. For our wealthy upscale busy customers, they love this service, however some people don't mind dropping their car off at a garage with two seats on the side as the waiting area or having a friend pick them up and drop them off. That being said, I either do all my work myself or have one of the techs in the shop do it after hours, so I'm a bit fortunate in that regard.
| Euphoricuck |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/27/10 03:37 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: PurduinaSi
Anybody on this forum can tell you that you'll end up spending more money on mods/repairs/whatever on a sports car than you will on ANY Japanese econobox commuter. (unless you're Euphoric )
) where have I said its cheaper to operate a sports car? pretty sure I say the opposite.
Are part prices for the e36 that bad? no not really, if thats what you are referring to.
as for more rewarding to drive...eh yes and no. totally depends on what you are talking about and what cars...
all that said,im dropping my diff tonight. fun times.
| NOT spotch... |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/27/10 03:45 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: Euphoric
Originally Posted By: PurduinaSi
Anybody on this forum can tell you that you'll end up spending more money on mods/repairs/whatever on a sports car than you will on ANY Japanese econobox commuter. (unless you're Euphoric )
) where have I said its cheaper to operate a sports car? pretty sure I say the opposite.
Are part prices for the e36 that bad? no not really, if thats what you are referring to.
as for more rewarding to drive...eh yes and no. totally depends on what you are talking about and what cars...
all that said,im dropping my diff tonight. fun times.
Get it or not, I thought it was funny
| PurduinaSi |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/27/10 04:18 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: Euphoric
Originally Posted By: PurduinaSi
Anybody on this forum can tell you that you'll end up spending more money on mods/repairs/whatever on a sports car than you will on ANY Japanese econobox commuter. (unless you're Euphoric )
) where have I said its cheaper to operate a sports car? pretty sure I say the opposite.
Are part prices for the e36 that bad? no not really, if thats what you are referring to.
as for more rewarding to drive...eh yes and no. totally depends on what you are talking about and what cars...
all that said,im dropping my diff tonight. fun times.
You're reading too far into it... I meant spending money on your previous Japanese econobox commuter..
Why are you dropping your diff?
| Euphoricuck |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/27/10 05:39 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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I still dont get it
one of the (output shaft)seals is leaking..and at least the front bushing is shot. so im gonna replace the diff bushings and fix the seal.
will also give me more room to slather everything up in wurth anti rust paint.
the car has seen winters since it was new and there is quite a bit of rust down there
i have a diff support to weld in to, but wont get to it for a few weeks. easy enough to do later.
in spring/summer I will drop the subframe and replace all the bushings/reinforce and and paint the subframe(may even pick up a less rusted used one depending on how bad this one is once i pull it out).
| LNXGUY |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/27/10 06:31 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Jon, the subframe can't be that bad. Pull it, powdercoat it and never worry about it again.
| PurduinaSi |
| (Post Master Sr) |
| 10/27/10 06:34 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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You've never seen E36 subframes then
| LNXGUY |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/27/10 06:49 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Originally Posted By: PurduinaSi
You've never seen E36 subframes then
I used to drive a mkII vw..
Can it possibly be worse then that?
| Euphoricuck |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/27/10 06:50 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Im not going to pull the subframe tonight.
i dont have ALL the bushings(nor the reinforcements to weld in) i need to replace back there. i have a good number though.
, so just some light touch ups for the winter should be fine
| Panda Express |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/27/10 06:57 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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Make sure you have a sport bike and a tow strap handy in case you need to tow it to a nearby shop. Oh, and a sheet of plywood, in case it happens to be parked on grass.
| Euphoricuck |
| (Post Master Supreme) |
| 10/27/10 09:47 PM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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*fuckin dead*
yum.rusty
going to be fun times trying to put it back in myself
| HYst |
| (Jr Member) |
| 10/31/17 02:50 AM |
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Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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