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I'm in the market for some big injectors. I could either do: 1) Get a set of peak and hold injectors and run with MS. With peak and hold board option and Hi Res fuel program it will idle up to 1000cc or 1600cc believe it or not. 2) I could also do an extra injector set up with a smaller primary set and another set of larger injectors. Advantage for #1 is simplicity. I would need to get a "peak and hold" board for my Megasquirt standalone which runs about $70 plus about $270 for a set of 1000cc injectors shipped. That gets me to about 400whp on pump gas using E85. Probably enough... #2 would be about $200 for a set of 4 1600cc Ford racing Saturated injectors. Plus I would need another aftermarket fuel rail @ $150 or some mods to stocker to run a dual rail set up. Cost could be a little cheaper with this and I would never run out of fuel(with the correct fuel pump set up). Megasquirt can do it but it adds complexity. I currently have 30lb/hr which should be fine for idling the car and at cruise, even with E85. WWSVAD? |
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Also if anybody has the hookup on kinda cheap 1600cc peak and hold injectors let me know. |
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1 extra injectors is gay |
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Sweet I found a hook up on 1600cc injectors which I must verify are peak and hold. Big Injectors I asked one of the few guru's on Neon.Org if they will work for me. His "slow" car is set up very similarly to how I want mine. |
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Originally Posted By: Euphoric 1 extra injectors is gay yu0= gay extra injectors are the best way to idle and putt around like stock |
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Remember their is a minimum dwell time on injectors else you'll overheat them at idle and they will fail. |
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Originally Posted By: danl Remember their is a minimum dwell time on injectors else you'll overheat them at idle and they will fail. I hear ya, something like 2.5ms is the min on peak and hold. I haven't done the math but got some feedback from RacerSteve on Neons.org. According to him 1600cc will be a bit much on gas but will idle well with E85 (he's doing it now). I believe I'll be getting 1000cc and IF I ever have E85 available AND make more than ~400whp I'll worry about it then. At that point I'd need a lot more to go along with the injectors: "more built" engine internals, bigger badder fuel pump set up, tranny might not like that much power either. |
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1600's work well on 2.0L an e85. 1000's on gas support 650 and more hp (depends a lot on your redline). |
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Originally Posted By: danl 1600's work well on 2.0L an e85. 1000's on gas support 650 and more hp (depends a lot on your redline). Let's talk about rpm vs injector size. I'm guessing higher rpm will support more horsepower on a given injector size? I will be running the Neon up to about 7200rpm, possible a little higher. Horsepower peak will probably be at 6600-6800. |
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Originally Posted By: OnyxEros Originally Posted By: Euphoric 1 extra injectors is gay yu0= gay extra injectors are the best way to idle and putt around like stock hes not running an fmu. proper computers can idle anything he will use. extra injectors are for losers. |
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Or RX7 owners, or people that want awesome driveability with huge turbo setups etc. |
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Originally Posted By: Euphoric Originally Posted By: OnyxEros Originally Posted By: Euphoric 1 extra injectors is gay yu0= gay extra injectors are the best way to idle and putt around like stock hes not running an fmu. proper computers can idle anything he will use. extra injectors are for losers. please stick to your shitty podunk none performane 1.8L honda Any one that knows anything about tuning for drivability and big power knows that running extra staged injectors are the best way to get the best of both worlds. Nevermind better fuel atomization and placing staged injectors further up the intake tract to promote tumble at high rpm. It's simple common sense for those that build motors. |
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Quote: '99 Sentra SE-L |
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Originally Posted By: Euphoric Quote: '99 Sentra SE-L you do realize that model came with the SR20DE, and he has the SR20VE anyway now... |
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yes I know it has the de... point? Quote: please stick to your shitty podunk none performane 1.8L honda |
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Originally Posted By: Euphoric yes I know it has the de... point? Quote: please stick to your shitty podunk none performane 1.8L honda well the SR20DE is 2L and the SR20 is arguably better. |
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Originally Posted By: ScottStaypuff Let's talk about rpm vs injector size. I'm guessing higher rpm will support more horsepower on a given injector size? I will be running the Neon up to about 7200rpm, possible a little higher. Horsepower peak will probably be at 6600-6800. Thread Jackers! LOL |
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de... even the ve. its not like its something special compared to an equivalent honda motor. not in the least. makes no sense. if he had an ls7 swap it would make more sense. running 8 injectors on a 200 hp 4 banger is stupid. |
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Originally Posted By: Euphoric de... even the ve. its not like its something special compared to an equivalent honda motor. not in the least. makes no sense. if he had an ls7 swap it would make more sense. running 8 injectors on a 200 hp 4 banger is stupid. did you even read what they said? and btw i think he does have a VE. |
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read what who said? you said they. who is they? ya great he has a ve. he is no better off than I am with a "shitty 1.8 honda". great, hes doing some n/a build, running 8 fucking injectors to make 200 hp and is gonna run low 14's at 98 mph. sounds awesome to me. where do I sign up? theres no point for scotty to run extra injectors. he will be fine running the appropriate size injectors for his (roughly) 400whp set up. no aftermarket ecu will have issues running injectors for that power level. itll idle just fine and perform great. he will have 4 injectors. no need to bother with extra fuel rails , lines, wiring etc. KISS. keep it simple... if you can avoid putting on extra shit then why wouldnt you? |
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Originally Posted By: Euphoric read what who said? you said they. who is they? ya great he has a ve. he is no better off than I am with a "shitty 1.8 honda". great, hes doing some n/a build, running 8 fucking injectors to make 200 hp and is gonna run low 14's at 98 mph. sounds awesome to me. where do I sign up? theres no point for scotty to run extra injectors. he will be fine running the appropriate size injectors for his (roughly) 400whp set up. no aftermarket ecu will have issues running injectors for that power level. itll idle just fine and perform great. he will have 4 injectors. no need to bother with extra fuel rails , lines, wiring etc. He never said anything about his car. He said big turbos... God your so blinded by him making fun of your 1.8l engine(size complexion?) that you didnt read the rest. |
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Originally Posted By: Euphoric KISS. keep it simple... if you can avoid putting on extra shit then why wouldnt you? |
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Originally Posted By: Euphoric read what who said? you said they. who is they? ya great he has a ve. he is no better off than I am with a "shitty 1.8 honda". great, hes doing some n/a build, running 8 fucking injectors to make 200 hp and is gonna run low 14's at 98 mph. sounds awesome to me. where do I sign up? theres no point for scotty to run extra injectors. he will be fine running the appropriate size injectors for his (roughly) 400whp set up. no aftermarket ecu will have issues running injectors for that power level. itll idle just fine and perform great. he will have 4 injectors. no need to bother with extra fuel rails , lines, wiring etc. KISS. keep it simple... if you can avoid putting on extra shit then why wouldnt you? Seriously kid you do a good job of talking about the superiority of your stock b16 head (not even itr cams) and your b18 block (again stock gsr) but you are way out of your league if you think you have more to say about staged injection than I do. here's a hint If you don't know that's a 90mm bore This is what a valve job looks like 3 angle on the port Swirl polished and back cut valves 70mm throttle body Ported IM More than your entire car is worth on 1 table enough radiator to ice skate on And a standalone engine management that will own you, your family and every civic b or k series YOU will ever own. To the OP: If the Mega Squirt is anything like the AEM you can easily adjust to have your secondaries come online at a predetermined RPM, Speed and/or Duty cycle that your primaries reach. Ford racing injectors are dirt cheap up to 92lbs and wiring them in and turning them on is a cake walk. Personally I would run your stock primaries off boost and switch to running your stockers as well as your big secondaries once the turbo starts to spool |
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Cant say I see where I mentioned the superiority of my motor...it was actually you that called it a pos....when you are polishing a turd to the nth degree. I just defended my stuff. I have a gsr bottom? Great pics of your stuff. want me to post pics of parts i have had years ago? or parts taht I still have lying around? you trying to show how cool you are spending 6k on an n/a build? I had AEM EMS right when it came out. wheres my cookie? I guess that means I owned YOU already. My intercooler and gt35r turbo look a lot nicer than anything else you got... shit I think I need another cookie for that. what a great pissing contest... not [/borat] if you want to compare apples to apples. k20 > sr20ve anyday of the week. I dont give a fuck howmany books you read up on staged injection. its pathetic that you are running it on a 200hp n/a motor. Cool for the experience and learning I guess but thats about it. More parts/wiring is just more shit to go wrong with and more work. If you can run 4 injectors(on a 4banger) thatll idle fine, be enough for your power , why would you want to run staged injection for? WHY? so you can be jdm tyte and pretend you have some jdm n1 motor? what would it give you other than zomg i have 8 injectors compared to your 4. im Teh mastAr. youll be the god of the sr20 community. youll just have more shit to add on, more wiring, more tuning ... so if you can run normal injector set up you should. Keep it simple stupid. throwing in 4 injectos into the stock location > extra fuel rails, wiring, possibly drilling shit,diff intake manis etc. |
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hey ass produce a motor that shows you know wtf you are talking about or save the big conversation for the big boys I know 200hp is the holy grail for your 1.8 but the big boys have bigger toys to play with... oh yeah didn't you blow up your 35r? Again it shows you don't know what you are talking about when tuning a car. Looks like a stock manifold in my pic and it looks like the secondaries fit just fine. Go get a k-series, better yet get a k24 and after you pay someone to build it for you pay them to tune it as well... After that maybe you can have a cookie |
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so... no explanation as to why its better. I see. more complicated is always better than less complicated. you can pretend you are jdm now! I dont know why you dont see more turbo guys who make REAL power running staged set ups.. hrmmm... ... lol big boys. bigger toys? I know you arent THAT stupid. 200 whp is mildbuild b16 territory... my 35r is doing just fine thank you. not sure what that has to do with staged injection...although I know its way sexier than any shit pile part on your ugly heap. Itll make more power too. It already has... you must have me confused with all the other wallet mechanics in here. I do my own shit. (which hasnt been anything in the last year). Ive had other shit to do... like real life stuff. You know ive had the motor in my car apart...and put it back together myself and its running strong still . i was just in it . it still works! oooo. I want my cookie now! |
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Better tumble (more power) Better fuel atomization (more power) Better idle Better low speed driveability Better fuel economy Cooler injectors since they arent maxing out their duty cycle show me 5 b16's that make over 200whp don't just say "go to honda-tech" or "my boys do it 40 ways from sunday" Again you fucked your motor so i don't suggest anyone listen to you about how to tune |
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Originally Posted By: Euphoric lol big boys. bigger toys? I know you arent THAT stupid. I know its way sexier than any shit pile part on your ugly heap. negro please you drive a stock gsr in a civic |
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Euphoric the tuner on why he cracked a ringland trying to run a 35r on his stock motor Originally Posted By: Euphoric I was working with a stock motor. thats all i could afford to do.I was also tuning myself. Something id never done before. Talk to tuners and ask howmany motors theyve been through.... |
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Originally Posted By: OnyxEros Originally Posted By: Euphoric lol big boys. bigger toys? I know you arent THAT stupid. I know its way sexier than any shit pile part on your ugly heap. negro please you drive a stock gsr in a civic and you drive a pos sentra with some 6k n/a build thatll make 200whp. i have a gsr? |
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Originally Posted By: OnyxEros Better tumble (more power) Better fuel atomization (more power) Better idle Better low speed driveability Better fuel economy Cooler injectors since they arent maxing out their duty cycle show me 5 b16's that make over 200whp don't just say "go to honda-tech" or "my boys do it 40 ways from sunday" Again you fucked your motor so i don't suggest anyone listen to you about how to tune this is a boosted set up. for the extra 2 hp you get from your better fuel flow on your n/a set up, he can just turn up the boost.(if he even wanted). itll be making 400 whp . an extra few ponies wont make much of a difference.A simple injector set up will in terms of install, tuning and cost. 4 injector set up is much simpler than multi set up. 1000cc or even 1600cc's will not be stressed in terms of duty cycle on a 400whp set up. just cause you wanted to be jdm with your n1 mani doesnt make it the bestest thing evAr. as for 200whp b16's. if you dont believe it, ah well. why bother posting links? youll just come up with some other smack talk about it. LOL @ you thinking you are in some different league playing with your turd 2.0L n/a nissan 4 banger. edit:seems you are well aware of 200whp b16's. you ordered the fucking dvd. Originally Posted By: Onyxeros I ordered this video a few weeks back and i must say I am impressed. I don't drive a Honda but I am in the middle of modifying a 4cyl nissan motor for N/A duty. I must say this is far and away the best vid for understanding how our motors work and what it takes to extract power. Well chosen mods and careful assembly can do wonders. I never knew what a 'valve job' was until this video. I had never seen the machine. I enjoyed the commentary about oversized valves and rod bearings. I also found the valve spring compressor that i will be using to do most of the dissambly work myself. This video can easily save you $1000 in labor on your build...EASY Geat jobs guys http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1319890&page=8 LOL lol @ me cracking a ringland. what a blown up motor .Car had ran for a year just fine. trust me, i wouldve rather of blown it up /melted something. That wouldve been cooler. you attempt to knock me by saying I pay for shit to be done.... but quickly change to knock me for installing the turbo myself, and learning to tune myself(which I didnt even really devote a lot of time to learning). nigra pls. its called a learning process. even your dumbass didnt know everything all the time... http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread.php?t=90347 zomg what does boring a motor do? lol tool. hrmm . paying for someone else to do stuff , huh? http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread.php?t=144133 you're a fucking clown. take your shit a gtfo. like you are some f1 engine builder and tuner doign all kinds of shit . lets see your resume of highly tuned engines... at 27 years old im sure you have lots! http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread.php?t=98169 ... http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread.php?t=14217 Quote: may have found a solution Question is it ok to start the car with the valve cover off? http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1249974 Originally Posted By: Onyzeros I won't quote all of what Jeff says but I do agree. I am in no way a professional engine builder (in fact im not even an amateur honda builder) http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=25923&page=2 pot , meet kettle. i can search forums too... |
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Good pwnage, would read again!!! |
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Originally Posted By: ScottStaypuff Originally Posted By: danl 1600's work well on 2.0L an e85. 1000's on gas support 650 and more hp (depends a lot on your redline). Let's talk about rpm vs injector size. I'm guessing higher rpm will support more horsepower on a given injector size? I will be running the Neon up to about 7200rpm, possible a little higher. Horsepower peak will probably be at 6600-6800. Wow, I can't shift through this bullshit arguing but your question.......... When RPM's increase you have less of a time window to open the injector. Its so bad actually that under heavy boost we will turn the injector on while the intake valve is closed to let fuel puddle up on the intake valve. Life sucks bigtime. I guess it is good at cooling the valve but who cares about intake valves overheating? At 6000rpm's you have 20ms from which to squirt fuel. At 16ms you are at 80% duty cycle or the number I try to not go over when I'm designing a fuel system. 16ms really isn't much time hence you need big injectors. Do figure out amount of time to squirt fuel take rpm and divide by 60 to get rev's per second. Divide by 2 to for a 4 stroke. Take the inverse of this number and you get the time in ms. At 9000rpm's you have 13.3 ms to squirt fuel and 10.6ms at 80% duty cycle to support whatever hp you are trying to support. Ewww.......... |
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Originally Posted By: Euphoric pot , meet kettle. i can search forums too... OMG you go back 3+ years to prove you know me? Thanks for the love i didn't know you cared so much when did i ever claim to be a professional engine builder? When did i claim to work in or for a shop? When did i claim to do head work? Nice job ass Still doesn't prove you know how to tune or that you didn't blow up your motor trying to be hot shit. Oh yeah you are correct it's a learning process...i try not to learn by blowing shit up. you also claim that you didn't have enough money to do your 35r correctly...if you can't afford to do the job right don't do it at all. And finally dual injectors are for low speed light throttle driveability not for top end. Why can't you understand it's easier to idle a 370cc injector than a 1000cc injector?? This has dick to do with who makes the most top end power it has to do with drivability And Yes you should pay someone to tune your car since you didn't do enough research to figure out how to do it yourself |
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Originally Posted By: danl Originally Posted By: ScottStaypuff Originally Posted By: danl 1600's work well on 2.0L an e85. 1000's on gas support 650 and more hp (depends a lot on your redline). Let's talk about rpm vs injector size. I'm guessing higher rpm will support more horsepower on a given injector size? I will be running the Neon up to about 7200rpm, possible a little higher. Horsepower peak will probably be at 6600-6800. Wow, I can't shift through this bullshit arguing but your question.......... When RPM's increase you have less of a time window to open the injector. Its so bad actually that under heavy boost we will turn the injector on while the intake valve is closed to let fuel puddle up on the intake valve. Life sucks bigtime. I guess it is good at cooling the valve but who cares about intake valves overheating? At 6000rpm's you have 20ms from which to squirt fuel. At 16ms you are at 80% duty cycle or the number I try to not go over when I'm designing a fuel system. 16ms really isn't much time hence you need big injectors. Do figure out amount of time to squirt fuel take rpm and divide by 60 to get rev's per second. Divide by 2 to for a 4 stroke. Take the inverse of this number and you get the time in ms. At 9000rpm's you have 13.3 ms to squirt fuel and 10.6ms at 80% duty cycle to support whatever hp you are trying to support. Ewww.......... Thanks Dan. |
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I skipped alot of the arguing as well..but I tend to agree w/E on this one. I am using 1000cc injectors for 450whp..and will stay w/them until they are outgrown, usually around ~600whp. My car idles/drives like stock and my mpg is 25 or so, depending on my foot. My intake manifold has 4 extra ports for injectors but have proven to be unneeded w/our setups. I am currently working on an Rx7 for a friend and redoing his entire fuel setup,PITA..it is using a primary/secondary rails/injectors for fuel delivery which will work out nice when it's done. Each to their own..I don't beleive one is better/worse..just depends on the app... |
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FWIW I'm on 1000cc/min stepping up from 650's last year. Car idles the same. You just need the EFI system that affords you the tools to idle well. On gas I probably wouldn't go over a 1000cc/min and street drive it with our current technology and in EFI and injector design. On E85, E98, or methanol I'd run 1600cc/min and have no problem making it streetable. Above these limits if you want it to be street able the next viable option is staged injectors. However, on a 4 cyl at 55psi base pressure (what I run) and 1000cc/min injectors at *proper* AFR's your making deep into the 600 and 700whp. |
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nuh uh. staged is the only way. dieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! pot , meet kettle again onyx... you dont even know the circumstances regarding anything thats happened to me...and you think you know me? go back to sr20 forums and jack off over your n1 manifold and staged injection on a 200hp motor. |