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#1697519 - 07/29/07 06:22 PM Talk about track width
Hemix Offline
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Registered: 07/02/04
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Thought I'd try some race rubber and found some Circle Racing Wheels with 225/50R13 Hoosiers for cheap. Hopefully I have enough grip like this:







Think they're wide enough?
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#1698125 - 07/29/07 09:10 PM Re: Talk about track width [Re: Hemix]
Noob4Life Offline
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Registered: 05/30/02
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Loc: IL, USA
hope you like replacing wheel bearings!
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#1698331 - 07/29/07 10:32 PM Re: Talk about track width [Re: Noob4Life]
Hemix Offline
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Registered: 07/02/04
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Originally Posted By: Noob4Life
hope you like replacing wheel bearings!


Ya, I figured that would happen Noob. Just curious, do you have any idea how often they'll be going out Noob? I'm only using them for autocross, 3-4 runs a day.
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"Great scientific achievements are not made by a genius saying 'Eureka'. Great scientific achievements are made by a confused man saying, 'What the f***?'" -Matthew Tearle

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#1698864 - 07/30/07 04:07 AM Re: Talk about track width [Re: Hemix]
Hemix Offline
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While I was playing Forza I was thinking about how much extra torque would be applied to the wheel bearing from the extra moment arm due to the wide wheels. I had to make some assumptions, like the coeffecient of friction I assumed to be a conservative 1.0 (FSAE estimated the mu for their Hoosiers at 1.7, so 1.0 is significantly less). I also assumed that the suspension load was 1000lbs, which shouldn't change anything except for the magnitude of the outcome. To make the calculations much easier, I assumed that the Reaction (normal) Force is applied completely at the edge of the tire, when in reality it would be distributed along the whole tire, thus raising the moment caused by the Reaction Force. Lastly, I assumed no tire deformation, but I think we can agree that it would not have a significant effect on the torque applied to the wheel bearings. Anyways, here's what I came up with:

Here's the calculations on my normal race wheels that are a more traditional offset:


And here's the calculations for the wheels in the picture with the crazy offset:


As you can see, the regular wheel applied 587 ft-lbs to the wheel bearing while the wide wheel only applied 223 ft-lbs because the large moment caused by the wide wheels actually cancels out part of the moment caused by friction.

Granted these are all rough calculations with many assumptions, but I think the general idea still applies. Also, it does not take into account the moment on the wheel bearing due to acceleration and braking, but I do not think those are very significant when compared to the forces applied while cornering due to lateral G's.

So, to sum it up, the wide wheels with crazy offset may actually reduce the wear on wheel bearings, atleast on paper. Please, feel free to comment and criticize Noob, I'm not meaning to argue, just got carried away when I started thinking about it.
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"Great scientific achievements are not made by a genius saying 'Eureka'. Great scientific achievements are made by a confused man saying, 'What the f***?'" -Matthew Tearle

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#1699749 - 07/30/07 01:16 PM Re: Talk about track width [Re: Hemix]
Noob4Life Offline
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Registered: 05/30/02
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noooooooooooooooooo i just typed out a few paragraphs and CSI took a dump on me. Let's try this again:

Forces acting on the suspension won't be centered on the hub assembly as you have pictured, at least not directly (I assume the point on which force "W" is acting is your hub in both pictures, and we're looking at the front driver's). You're not dealing with a mac-strut suspension (at least not that Civic above), you have a double wishbone so the forces are transmitted through a large lever (the lower control arm) to the tire. That lever is what will causes the actual increase in forces acting on the entire suspension assembly, and that (as I understand it) is the scrub radius.

Imagine how a wheel bearing works, and how forces would act on it under hard load (leaving longitudinal forces and tire spring rate/deformation out of your calculations will cost you..), and you can see how moving the contact patch outwards will increase stress on the components. Or simply imagine lifesaver's candy (wheel/tire) on a straw (axle, control arm, tie rod, hub/bearing). Roll the lifesaver around in a circle while applying downward force on a given point on the straw, NOT at the center of the lifesavers. Move that point towards your hand (centerline), simulating a widening of the track width, and see how much more easily the straw bends under the same force. While it won't show the specific effect on the wheel bearing itself, you'll get an idea of how the overall result will affect the bearing in a real world model.

I see you've not only widened but shortened the tire. Again, not factoring in tire deformation and spring rate of the tire along with longitudinal force (is the tire ever ONLY sideways?) is going to throw off your results. As a general note, a wider tire = more force = more stress on the components but we can disregard that for now if we make the assumption that there may be something else in these calculations that may nullify the increase.

By moving the tire out and widening the track without actually moving the point at which forces at the contact patch are generated through the suspension, you will most certainly be increasing forces on the wheel bearing, because you're giving those forces a bigger lever with which to act on the remaining suspension components. I am not sure how that does not show in your calculation results but maybe there is a miscalc somewhere?

Also another general note, bringing the contact patch out without changing other geometry will increase negative camber gain in compression. more negative camber in a corner = larger contact patch. larger contact patch = greater cornering forces given the same slip angles.

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#1700266 - 07/30/07 03:29 PM Re: Talk about track width [Re: Noob4Life]
civicbooty Offline
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wow cool a csi, sport compact car style dave moment!
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#1700315 - 07/30/07 03:44 PM Re: Talk about track width [Re: Noob4Life]
Hemix Offline
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Registered: 07/02/04
Posts: 291
I did think about where the suspension load was applied. Since the LCA meets up with the knuckle at a ball joint, it is impossible for the load to applied a moment to the knuckle. Since the knuckle is assumed to be rigid and without deformation, the load is applied directly down on the wheel bearing which is how I have it illustrated. I could have added some more lines and whatnot to show where the load is actually applied and how that translates to the knuckle and then to the bearing but I was trying to make is as simple of a free-body diagram as I could. Anyways, since the load is applied from the knuckle down on the bearing, there is no extra moment (only force) applied by the suspension load and thus it does not change the calculations.

The tire deformation problem I have no reply to. Not only is it decently unpredictable, I do not have the knowledge or time to even make a rough estimate as to how tire deformation would change the moment on the wheel bearing. But in general, I do not think that tire deformation would cause a significant change in the moment on the wheel bearing.

I do understand that the wider tires will cause more grip and more grip means more stress on suspension components as well as other things in the car. However, what I was meaning is that the crazy offset with the wheels that stick out the side of the car isn't going to add stress to the wheel bearings. This is because the extra moment caused by the edge of the wheel being so far from the hub is in the opposite direction of the moment caused by the friction of the tire on the ground and thus they atleast partway cancel one another. Like I said, atleast on paper although I guess we'll see in real life.

By the way Noob, I just want to let you know that I love you and that there's no one else I'd rather be having this conversation with. I believe that from experience, you're probably right and I will go through wheel bearings. I can make all the calculations I want, but I know that you know what will really happen from your own experience. Which is why pretty soon I'll probably be making a new post "Where to find the best price on Wheel Bearings?"


Edited by Hemix (07/30/07 03:56 PM)
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"Great scientific achievements are not made by a genius saying 'Eureka'. Great scientific achievements are made by a confused man saying, 'What the f***?'" -Matthew Tearle

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#1703706 - 07/31/07 01:38 PM Re: Talk about track width [Re: Hemix]
AX-NY'06Si Offline
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Registered: 09/19/06
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Loc: Southern NY State
Originally Posted By: Hemix
By the way Noob, I just want to let you know that I love you and that there's no one else I'd rather be having this conversation with.


You guys are going to make me cry.



Fascinating subject. I don't know as much as you two guys, but I think Noob is right. Your argument that the "deformation" will occur at the bearings because the knuckle is rigid does not seem right. By your definition, the bearing, knuckle and ball joint would all be considered somewhat rigid to torsional forces each with a certain amount of nominal flex.

What you calculate as Mf as a torsional force on W is translated to a vertical mechanical force on W by the principally vertical movement of the hub as prescribed by the collective levering of the upper and lower control arm and as allowed to decreasing degrees as the spring is compressed.

Essentially by increasing the distance from the fulcrum of the movement of the suspension to the wheel you are increasing the distance to the output force relative to the input force on a third class lever thereby decreasing the mechanical advantage and increasing the load on the input force, which you show as W or the vertical force exerted on the bearing.

As for your Ff which is the horizontal force exerted in a cornering vehicle, a portion would be translated by the suspension movement to an additive vertical force on the bearings when the outer suspension mounting points are above the inner mounting points and a subtractive force when the outer points are below the inner points. There would also be a torsional component of the force on the bearing, and balljoint and suspension mounting points, but alot of the horizontal energy Ff would, I expect, be absorbed in sidewall flex and compression of the suspension bushings and of course alot of that Ff is converted to heat and lateral movement.

Just my thoughts, for what they are worth to two people who admittedly seem to know much more than I.
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#1705757 - 07/31/07 09:44 PM Re: Talk about track width [Re: AX-NY'06Si]
Hemix Offline
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Registered: 07/02/04
Posts: 291
Let me see if this helps at all, since you don't seem to like how I labeled W (which is the load on the wheel bearing from the suspension)



The load applied by the spring is not equal to W, but it is in the same direction as W in my original pictures. There are two FORCES being applied to the wheel bearing, one from the wheel (from tire to wheel to hub to bearing) and the other from the knuckle (from the spring to the suspension arms to the bearing). These two force must be equal so that the bearing does not accellerate one way or the other. So as you can see, although the force provided from the spring is not 1000lbs, the load from the suspension, W, could be 1000lbs and if it is, the reaction force on the wheel is the same. You can make the suspension load at W whatever you want, the calculations will yield the same result, only of a different magnitude.

However, the load direct force being applied to the to bearing does not matter and will not change based on different wheels, it is the moments applied on the bearing that is the concern with the wider wheels. And since the placement of the spring load does not change the moment on the wheel bearings, it does not have an effect on my original calculations. I've checked them many times, and my engineering gut tells me that the drawings and calculations are dead on given the assumptions I made.
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"Great scientific achievements are not made by a genius saying 'Eureka'. Great scientific achievements are made by a confused man saying, 'What the f***?'" -Matthew Tearle

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#1706013 - 07/31/07 11:11 PM Re: Talk about track width [Re: Hemix]
AX-NY'06Si Offline
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^^^ Look man you are much more knowledgeable than me on this, but I have a couple of questions on your description.

1. How can you say that the loads on the bearing are equal when the bearing and knuckle and lower control arm are all accellerating upward and compressing the spring. It would seem to me that in order for the entire knuckle/bearing assembly to move, Fr would have to be greater than W. In this case an increased load must be exerted by the wheel, ball joint, bearing and mounting bolts as well as control arm.
2. If the upward force transmitted by the upward movement of the suspension (relative to the car) is compressing the spring, isn't a greater force being transmitted downward to equalize the W to the increased Fr?
3. If Fr is exerted at a greater distance on the LCA from the fulcrum, and the distance from the fulcrum to W remains the same, doesn't Fr's mechanical advantage over W increase meaning that under load when an increased Fr is experienced it will compress the spring more because of the increased mechanical advantage of Fr?
4. Won't the increased force experienced by the suspension be greatest closest to W. Won't the relative location of the bearing nearer to W than Fr along the LCA increase the force exerted on it.
5. Am I a dumbass for not getting it?
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#1706230 - 08/01/07 12:31 AM Re: Talk about track width [Re: AX-NY'06Si]
Hemix Offline
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Registered: 07/02/04
Posts: 291
I'll try my best to explain what I can AX-NY:

1. In my model, I was assuming that the suspension was in static equilibrium, as in the suspension was fully loaded in a sweeping turn. The only thing that would change would be the spring loading would be less causing the whole assembly to accellerate. However, the wheel, LCA, UCA, knuckle and hub would all move together and thus the internal forces between all of those items would have to cancel out like in the picture above.
2. Kinda the same answer as 1. static equilibrium. You're right, the suspension is dynamic during the turn, but in mid-turn, when the body has stopped rolling, the suspension can be assumed to be in a decent static equilibrium, which is where my calculations and whatnot came from.
3. You are right, Fr does cause a greater moment then W based on any point on in the suspension, but there are other arms and things to prevent rotation and cancel out the moment, like the upper control arm. The point is that forces in the y-direction must be equal to zero, which is why the magnitudes of Fr and W must be equal.
4. You lost me on this one. Do you mean the internal forces and moments in the LCA?
5. No, not at all, you've said things that have made me put a lot more thought into what was going on throughout the entire suspension during loading.
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"Great scientific achievements are not made by a genius saying 'Eureka'. Great scientific achievements are made by a confused man saying, 'What the f***?'" -Matthew Tearle

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#1708039 - 08/01/07 01:22 PM Re: Talk about track width [Re: Hemix]
AX-NY'06Si Offline
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1. Okay, I understand. However, I think that the static equilibrium idea is unrealistic. Even on a brand new track, you are going to experience grade changes, curbs, etc. On most tracks I know of you are going to be experience pavement seems, rough surfaces, etc. When these types of transient jounces are experienced they will exert greater force on the suspension. While ultimately the bearing is in static equilibrium, the force exerted on the top of the bearing pinching it against the knuckle will still increase which will increase the friction on the bearing rollers (I assume we have roller bearings).
2. Got it.
3. I agree that the forces must cancel each other out for the LCA not to move. However, they do not have to be equal. Fr has mechanical advantage over W. Therefore less force needs to be exerted at the tire in order to exert equal force on W. Assuming that the force inputs exerted by jounces on the tire are equal regardless of the offset, decreasing the offset and moving the tire away from the inner mounting point of the LCA (the primary fulcrum) will exert more force on the spring. This force cannot be experienced at the spring without first being exerted on the top of the wheel bearing.
4. This is what I was saying:


Now after all of this I understand why you are saying that the force is torsional rather than directional on the bearing.

However, I would wonder if your earlier calculations would still show a cancelling of moments if you were to assume that the tire was not at the limit of adhesion. Say that the Ff was 90% of mu x Fr.

Lastly, going back to your first calculations, if you assume that the bearing is the center of torsion, shouldn't moments f and r be measured from the outside shoulder of the tires perpendicular to a radius from the outside shoulder to the bearing. Shouldn't the direction of Fr and Ff be distributed into Mr and Mf components based on their angle to this radius. I think by only considering the x distance for Fr and only the y distance for Ff you assume that Fr exerted at the hub would be the same as Fr exerted at the contact patch and that Ff exerted at the inside of the tire is the same as Ff exerted at the outside of the tire.
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#1711054 - 08/02/07 12:06 AM Re: Talk about track width [Re: AX-NY'06Si]
Hemix Offline
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Registered: 07/02/04
Posts: 291
I think you may be going way to complex in this AX-NY. I know the suspension is dynamic at all times, but if you can calculate the moments and forces in the suspension on paper without assuming a certain amount of static equilibrium, by all means do it. My point was to make a simple understandable model of the moments in the wheel bearing while the suspension was loaded. I understand that it's not perfect, I'm an Aerospace Engineering student, not a professional with a Masters working for a race company.

Although it's not perfect and there are other things that would factor into a perfect replica, I think that my basic model still shows the point I was trying to make. Which is that extra wear on the wheel bearings might not actually be caused by the large arm provided by the high offset and wide wheels because a large moment in the opposite direction is also applied on the bearing by the frictional force on the tire.

Everything you put in your 4th item was included in my model, I took the actual measurements off of my regular races wheels and the off my new wheels from the pictures in my first post. Instead of just critiqing my model, you could model it yourself to more accurately show the moments applied in the bearing.

The point is that if you take a free-body diagram of just the bearing, you get the forces from the knucke, which are along the same line as the bearing and thus can't apply a moment and the moments from the hub which are the same moments from the two forces applied to the wheel, Fr and Ff. Since those are the only moments applied to the bearing, I don't understand what is incorrect in my model.

Truly, I was hoping to get technical enough to impress Noob so maybe he'd give me a job at Pic Performance.
_________________________
"Great scientific achievements are not made by a genius saying 'Eureka'. Great scientific achievements are made by a confused man saying, 'What the f***?'" -Matthew Tearle

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#1712207 - 08/02/07 11:08 AM Re: Talk about track width [Re: Hemix]
AX-NY'06Si Offline
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Registered: 09/19/06
Posts: 621
Loc: Southern NY State
Originally Posted By: Hemix
Instead of just critiqing my model, you could model it yourself to more accurately show the moments applied in the bearing.


Actually, maybe I will give it a try over the next month or so. I'm not an engineer and I am almost ten years out of school, so doing it well will require dusting off those Physics and Calculus books. I hope you don't think that I was trying to shoot down your model. I love learning stuff on boards like these from real knowledgable people and a really compelling discussion like you raised is a refreshing break on this board from talking about cold air intakes and transmission problems on 06+ or watching people get flamed on SVA and OT.

BTW - If I was building suspensions, I'd hire you.
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#9129873 - 09/12/17 02:27 AM Re: Talk about track width [Re: AX-NY'06Si]
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#9142308 - 09/27/17 02:28 AM Re: Talk about track width [Re: HYst]
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Basically, the term refers to the manufacturing of various kinds of clothing materials, dresses, and fashion accessories. Several factors have always influenced the production process... fashionwanabe.com
Car financing meant large amount of work in the past. But, now with online auto loans, things have become quicker. You can get instant approval and reduce the entire auto financing process by going online. Read this article and know how to use the web for getting a car loan. wholeautos.com
Earning substantial profit is the main objective of every business and for this it is imperative that your business grows in significant direction keeping pace with changing scenario. Because, if a businessmen continues to follow conventional methods of conducting business. assistbusinesses.com
Revenue-based financing is funding provided by investors to technology businesses (with no hard assets) in exchange for an agreed-upon percentage of the business revenues. Funding is linked to revenues. No hard assets are required for collateral. financeinstant.com
The principal product of a consultant is his time, you base your pitch to do a job on how long it will take to complete and, as consequence, set a rate on that time. When you sell your time, the labor you are hired to do in general falls into three categories: consultationreferences.com
There will be thousands of you who will be looking to buy a new mower this year and it looks like most of you will at least consider the new Craftsman yard and garden tractors with Turn Tight Technology. This article will discuss if you will have a problem with the new Craftsman riding mower feature! technologicalninjas.com
The World Health Organization (WHO) in 1948 defined health "... a state of complete physical, mental, and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity". Could there be more to it than that? This article examines that. Read on. conditionhealthy.com
You want a cottage by the sea, a chalet by a ski run or a lodge in the woods. But vacation homes are quite expensive, and most of us don't have the time to care for a second home in addition to our primary residence? experimenthome.com
Read on to learn what we discovered and how the pricing/savings compares to you booking your "Vacation Home" style condo through an International Travel Club. A must read for anyone considering buying a timeshare or for anyone who travels at least once every two years. travellingfellow.com
Do you shop at a grocery store, at a department store, have your car serviced, stay at a hotel, or even eat at a restaurant? I know, it is a silly question. Things you are already doing, you actually can get paid for it. shoppingconcern.com
Educating yourself to recognizing what editorial print modeling realistically "looks" like in a high fashion magazine is the first step to understanding the variations of the different types of editorial modeling and how it is different from the other more common types of "commercial" print modeling work. fashionbefore.com
Having an online presence is the best way to make your dealership available to customers as they are turning to Internet to research about vehicles and are finding online shopping more comfortable than visiting local auto dealerships these days. rationalautos.com
Scratching your head trying to figure out how to grow your business this year? Tired of waiting to see some results? Here are the proven top 10 ways you can grow your small business in the next 90 days. These are the all designed to drive business and sales for any budget range! earningsbusiness.com
If you need to obtain financing, you may be concerned that it's going to take you forever to get it. When you apply for a standard form of financing, not only do you have to deal with piles and piles of paperwork, but the processing period can take an extremely long-time. multiplyfinance.com
Commonly known as managed offices or executive suites, serviced offices are often located in prime business districts of large cities around the world. A serviced office is furnished and managed by a facility management company that rents individual offices to other businesses. serviceslately.com
If technology in the classroom is effective; why do many students dislike it so much? The effectiveness of technology use in the classroom has become a controversial issue. While many teachers and students feel that it's best to use technology. advisorytechnology.com
It is not enough to know about healthy food or exercise. It is not adequate to focus on your body and forget about other aspects. Health is about the combination of all important factors. healthexplaination.com
A beautiful house is the most covetous thing a person can ask for; luxury and comfort become the essential aspects of this home and the things that constitute this surreal look hold a high value. homeimprovementhappen.com
When it comes to travel risk management and the benefits of travel health, safety and security, this is what every travel, human resources, risk and general manager should know. In this article we will cover workplace health and safety standardization, standardtravelling.com
Singapore is well known for its shopping and food. There are so many places to shop that you would be spoilt for choices. Most visitors will head towards Orchard Road or Scotts Road as they are the traditional shopping belt in Singapore. aquireshopping.com
If you have plans to attend a fashion design school, the quality of your education is an important consideration. What should you be aware of? Accreditation, the quality of the curriculum, location, education in other subjects, and faculty. beginfashion.com
If you have ever put used auto parts on your vehicle, you might have stood in front of two rusty car parts trying to remember which one you just purchased, because they both look rusty and worn out. Certain auto parts are absolutely fine to purchase used, and in some cases may be your only option. insightfulautos.com
I have been involved in franchising dozens of businesses, at last count over 60. Some from concept and some where we converted an existing business to the franchised model and I am really happy to deal with either pathway with one really important proviso. quarterbusiness.com
Whilst buying a car is without doubt an exciting time, it can also be stressful and costly. Most people (at least 80%) cannot afford to buy a new car outright. Therefore, most car buyers acquire a new car using a deposit as down payment and obtain car finance to fund the rest. refertofinance.com
To manage accounts and to look after the matters related to accounts you need to hire a well qualified and certified accountant. Business owners mainly hire the services of professionals to handle their account department. servicesinvolve.com
The healthcare industry today is arguably experiencing the most change and challenges dealing with technology integration than any other industry. This article reveals the growing "rip and replace" trend of Electronic Health Records (EHR) systems. pursuetechnology.com
Research shows that health education has a positive impact on health behaviors as well as academic achievement, and that the most effective means of improving health literacy is ensuring that health education is included in curriculum at all levels of education. fearforhealth.com

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