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#1329765 - 05/04/07 03:43 PM Advice on Rear Springs
Hemix Offline
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Registered: 07/02/04
Posts: 291
Hey guys. I wanted to get some input from some other knowledgable autocrossers/racers.

I have a 96 Civic DX with a Civic Si front sway bar (26mm), comptech rear sway bar (23mm) and tein ss coilovers which come with 8kg(450lbs) springs in the front and 4kg(225lbs) springs in the rear. I race on 205/50-15 RT-615s for autocross. I just recently added the front sway bar and like it a lot, because it got rid of a lot of roll and really seemed to increase grip alot but my car isn't rotating as well as I would like it to. So i'm looking to change my spring rates and make them a little harder in the rear in hopes of getting a bit more rotation. I was thinking of putting 6kg (312.5lbs) springs in the rear and leaving the 8kg in the front. It's my daily driver so I can't go too high and tein says that 6kg is the maximum to go on the rear dampers.

So what do you think? I've heard mixed things because some people I've talked to say that the stiffer springs in the rear can create more grip in the rear (which I do not want). Others say that the stiffer springs in the rear will cause more rotation in the rear, which makes sense to me since a stiffer rear usually creates more oversteer.

Anyways, sorry for the long post but I'd love some input. Thank you.

-Dylan


Edited by Hemix (05/04/07 03:48 PM)
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"Great scientific achievements are not made by a genius saying 'Eureka'. Great scientific achievements are made by a confused man saying, 'What the f***?'" -Matthew Tearle

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#1329827 - 05/04/07 03:54 PM Re: Advice on Rear Springs [Re: Hemix]
Noob4Life Offline
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Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 26653
Loc: IL, USA
There's no way for stiffer springs to increase grip in the rear. You are increasing roll resistance by increasing spring rate -> higher roll resistance -> more sprung weight transfer, faster -> loss of grip -> rotation.

The end with more grip obviously has more traction, and would break away later than the opposite end.

If you can't push the rates any higher, you might try dropping the fronts (switch the springs). PLaying with tire pressures might help.

edit2: yeah that was right... My brain is dead from not being used at all today.


Edited by Noob4Life (05/04/07 03:57 PM)

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#1356304 - 05/05/07 06:49 AM Re: Advice on Rear Springs [Re: Noob4Life]
Huggy Moderator Offline
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Registered: 11/01/99
Posts: 42717
Loc: Cincinnati, OH
I'd suggest changing one or all of the following (this is only for a 92-00 Civic ~ go eat nails if you got something else or start your own post):
Front spring rates are too high. (seriously ~ no reason for over 400lbs/in unless it's a road race car)
Too large of a front anti-roll bar. (I ran a 19mm bar but even the EX 22mm bar is better then the stupid large Si 26mm)
Too small of a rear anti-roll bar. (22mm is acceptable I guess ~ I prefered the 25 or 32mm bars though)
Too low of rear spring rates. (you can get away with as low as 350lbs/in but the higher the better and contrary to what others will say the higher you go with a larger rear anti-roll bar will equal faster transistions and more grip)
Shock dampening is probably way off. (most people couldn't setup a shock to save their live and most companies couldn't build a shock worth a damn anyway ~ go custom built and save the hassle of having shitty equipment.)
More toe out in the front. (minimum 1/8" out)
Zero toe in rear. (zero toe in the rear just seems to work no matter what)
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- Owner and Driver of Cars -

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#1356905 - 05/05/07 02:39 PM Re: Advice on Rear Springs [Re: Huggy]
Noob4Life Offline
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Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 26653
Loc: IL, USA
The reason for the high front rates is because those shocks don't have a ton of avialable stroke. The higher rates in the front keep the front end from botting out. Also, many people DD on 560lbs/in springs up front, it's the rear rate that has the larger effect on ride quality.

Too much rear bar will cause you to lift the inside rear around every corner. Also, increasing roll resistance = reduced grip on that end as I said before, I'm not sure where you've found that more roll resistance would give more grip?

Custom valved setups are overkill for a street car. So are coilovers, but since the OP already has a set, there's no reason to overdo it anymore. There's no guarantee a "custom" setup will be any better (see Advanced Designs, unless you enjoy rebuilding your shocks after every season).

If a car is not turning in, toe-in will exacerbate the problem; a touch of toe-out is what will help with turn-in issues.

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#1358046 - 05/06/07 12:03 AM Re: Advice on Rear Springs [Re: Noob4Life]
Hemix Offline
Poster


Registered: 07/02/04
Posts: 291
I don't have any problems at all with turn-in, infact turn-in and transitions are what my car does best. I find problems with rotation mainly on sweepers. That's why I'm not messing with my damping to try and get rotation anymore, since that only really works for turn-in.

I know that the front sway bar is pretty big and my front rates seem kinda high compared to the rear, but the front of my car gets still gets a bit more roll then I would like. Also, there are many things I'd like to do to setup the car right but I'm a broke college student with barely enough for entrance fees and tires so when I do get extra cash there's a limited amount I can do.

That's why I was thinking 6kg springs in the rear would add 50% more stiffness to the rear of the car but still will hopefully not ruin ride quality. Noob4life is right, the rear rates are what kill ride quality.

The question from all of this is do you think the 6kg springs in the rear will infact help my rotation a good amount or is there something else I should be looking at? I want my car to be neutral in sweepers with a small hint of understeer if anything.
_________________________
"Great scientific achievements are not made by a genius saying 'Eureka'. Great scientific achievements are made by a confused man saying, 'What the f***?'" -Matthew Tearle

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#1358140 - 05/06/07 01:17 AM Re: Advice on Rear Springs [Re: Hemix]
Noob4Life Offline
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Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 26653
Loc: IL, USA
Bumping the rear rates up is going to be an improvement over your existing setup, that is for sure. Damping does play an a role in all phases of cornering, from entry to exit. Generally, damping adjustments made for corner-exit situations will have the same effect on mid-corner situations.

If the car wants to push mid-corner, and you know it is not a problem with the driver (getting on the gas too early, or too hard), then you want to look at increasing front rebound, and increasing rear compression (if available). The same would apply to corner-exit.

Some roll is good, since it sounds like you are fighting understeer already. And since you are already pretty stiff on the front bar, I would not go adding more.

We can't be sure without a shock dyno to look at, but it's possible that Homicide is right and your damping is simply not up to the task of handling those springs. Poor damping can be masked by a host of other handling variables, which sometimes aren't even problems. But due to the difficulty in diagnosing damping problems, people attribute it to other, more noticeable and easily fixed variables like tires, springs, and arb's.

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#1358268 - 05/06/07 07:57 AM Re: Advice on Rear Springs [Re: Noob4Life]
Huggy Moderator Offline
Post Master Supreme


Registered: 11/01/99
Posts: 42717
Loc: Cincinnati, OH
Lets get one thing straight ~ I'm always right. I'm not in the buisness of lying or spewing bullshit. I'm in the buisness of making vehicles go faster, winning races, and building world class suspensions. I've been doing it for almost 20 years.

If the shocks have too short of travel then ditch them ASAP ~ no reason to run anything over 400lbs/in front spring except on road race cars where ride height needs to be as low as possible. Secondly if don't have a good non-adjustable compression rate on your shocks you have to go to dual adjustable shocks to set the compression damping.

My final note (because I've decided that the 26mm anti-roll bar can be acceptable although it's too damn big) is that you have to decide ~ are you building a race car (for autox) or a street car? Rear spring rate is just way too low. Trust me on any of the Honda Civic/Integra chassis since 92 the higher the more grip and faster transitions.

And custom built shocks that are dual adjustable are a must for all cars IMO ~ street, track, autox, drag racing, whatnot. Shocks are the second most important part to any vehicle for handling behind tires. Tires are you feet and shocks are your muscles and you can't go fast without either.
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Kevin
- Owner and Driver of Cars -

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#1358385 - 05/06/07 10:36 AM Re: Advice on Rear Springs [Re: Huggy]
Noob4Life Offline
Post Master Supreme


Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 26653
Loc: IL, USA
So what are you suggesting to the OP, to build a race car or a street car? It sounds like you're suggesting options for both, which can be a little confusing. 336lbs/in in the rear is too soft, 26mm rear bar is ok, double-adjustability is necessary but 400lbs/in in the front is too stiff?

Quote:
Trust me on any of the Honda Civic/Integra chassis since 92 the higher the more grip and faster transitions.


Nobody doubts that more grip = better handling. I'd like to hear how higher rear rates + a stiffer rear arb = more grip in the rear though. Because I'm fairly certain it doesn't work that way.

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#1358570 - 05/06/07 12:18 PM Re: Advice on Rear Springs [Re: Noob4Life]
Hemix Offline
Poster


Registered: 07/02/04
Posts: 291
Thank you both for the advice and keep it coming as you can:

Homicide - This is my daily driver. I do not have enough money to make a dedicated race car so I have to get as close as I can while keeping my car streetable. Also, I would love to get new dampers but I don't have enough money to drop over $800 (or even $200 for that metter) for a new set of dampers, so I have to work with what I have.

Some more info if it will help at all...The Tein SS dampers are 16-way adjustable and adjust both rebound and compression on the same nob. (Stiffer makes both compression and rebound stiffer together) I know, it's pretty lame, if I knew then what I know now I wouldn't be riding on teins. The shocks on my car have not been dyno'd and finding the perfect damping on them is for the springs, without a dyno, is impossible so I'm just going to deal with it and use them to change the way the car behaves.

So Noob, you're saying that if I add some damping to the front, while it might not give me as much rotation on turn in, it should help with rotation on corner exit and thus mid-corner as well?
_________________________
"Great scientific achievements are not made by a genius saying 'Eureka'. Great scientific achievements are made by a confused man saying, 'What the f***?'" -Matthew Tearle

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#1358694 - 05/06/07 01:28 PM Re: Advice on Rear Springs [Re: Hemix]
Noob4Life Offline
Post Master Supreme


Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 26653
Loc: IL, USA
That is the idea, with the premise being that insufficient rebound damping in the front allows load to be shifted rearwards too quickly, unloading the front tires and causing you to push out of the corner as you get on the gas.

In an ideal situation, everything is should be well sorted out (from the tires to the driver), but since that's hardly ever the case and because we don't know how effective those dampers are, it might not work out that well in practice. I've found that in a few of the race cars that run our coilovers, increasing front rebound does to reduce corner exit understeer. But with rates of 8k/6k, there's only so much you can do.

You say the shocks are adjustable in both compression and rebound, but I'd be curious to see just how much compression is changing with adjustments in rebound. It's pretty shady of a manufacturer to call their shocks double adjustable when what is happening is simply crosstalk (aka unintended changes in compression as a result of reboudn adjustments).

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#1366205 - 05/08/07 10:01 AM Re: Advice on Rear Springs [Re: Hemix]
Hemix Offline
Poster


Registered: 07/02/04
Posts: 291
Okay, well it seems that's all people really have to say for now. Just wanted to say thanks Noob4life and Homicide for your replies and advice. The 6kg springs are on order so I'll let you know how it goes after I get an event or two on them. Thanks again!

-Dylan
_________________________
"Great scientific achievements are not made by a genius saying 'Eureka'. Great scientific achievements are made by a confused man saying, 'What the f***?'" -Matthew Tearle

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#9129885 - 09/12/17 02:30 AM Re: Advice on Rear Springs [Re: Hemix]
HYst Offline
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Registered: 05/21/17
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