#94311 - 05/28/05 08:53 AM
Re: B16a1 Vs B18a1 All moter project
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Relix
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 16256
Loc: 640 acres of desert
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When I get home from work, I'll post the picture of a b16 dyno with a b18a/b dyno and you'll see a b18a/b makes more power then a b16 untill after the b18a/b stops, the 18a/b makes more toqure then the b16 makes....
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Don't feed the troll BigAl or Albundy or Alfonso 1976 Fj55 landcruiser, 39" krawlers, front and rear lockers, on board air compressor , 16 speed transmission 1977 fj40 stock 1987 fj60 locked front and rear 33" tires 
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#94313 - 05/28/05 12:07 PM
Re: B16a1 Vs B18a1 All moter project
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cruzersi99
Post Master
Registered: 11/13/99
Posts: 2513
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You guys are answering his question, but you are answering his question in segments.
If we are talking power let's tallk about torque first. The B18 has more torque than the b16 in most of the rpm range (as stated above). Unfortunately, you can't rev a B18 as high as a b16.
When we start talking about revs, that's when HP comes into play. HP = RPM * Torque. The b16 produces more HP then a B18 because it can rev much higher.
Area under the curve between a b18 and a b16 over the entire rev range for each engine is probably pretty close. Maybe there is a slight edge for a b16. In an actual straight line race, where each driver is equal the b16 will probably win, however, just putting around town the b18 is considered to be much easier to drive.
Additionally, the trannies on each motor are different. A b18 with an ITR tranny, even a USDM one, is actually pretty fun to drive.
With the right amount of money any motor can be made fast and reliable when done right. It's all preference really.
_________________________
186 whp - Church Automotive (Dynapack) 189 whp - Zero Factory (Bosch) 
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#94316 - 05/28/05 07:26 PM
Re: B16a1 Vs B18a1 All moter project
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Relix
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 16256
Loc: 640 acres of desert
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Quote:
B16 vs B18 = B16 wins. And you can run up to 13:1 on 93 octane < (waiting on JoeB16's rebuttal) wouldn't recommend it but I have seen it.
anything you can do in a b16 you can do with a b18 but better with more hp and tq
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Don't feed the troll BigAl or Albundy or Alfonso 1976 Fj55 landcruiser, 39" krawlers, front and rear lockers, on board air compressor , 16 speed transmission 1977 fj40 stock 1987 fj60 locked front and rear 33" tires
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#94317 - 05/28/05 07:34 PM
Re: B16a1 Vs B18a1 All moter project
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Relix
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 16256
Loc: 640 acres of desert
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Quote:
Yeah combine them both and get the B18 torque + displacement and the B16 high rev + VTEC.
Dude, the reason the b16 can rev higher then the b18 is the stroke not because of the head
B16 stroke = 77mm
b18a/b - 89mm
Slapping a b16 head on an LS engine and reving it up above the LS's red line is a very bad idea.....
There are a few things you need to do to increase the revving ability of a LS bottom end in order to make it safe, like swaping out either an ITR or GSR water and oil pump(LS oil pumps perform poorly above 7400rpms.... Also with the longer stroke 89mm your piston speeds will be increased alot adding alot of stress on the rodbolts so swapping them out for ARP bolts would be a good idea...
Stock for stock in the same car a LS engined car would kick the hell out of a b16a cars ass...
_________________________
Don't feed the troll BigAl or Albundy or Alfonso 1976 Fj55 landcruiser, 39" krawlers, front and rear lockers, on board air compressor , 16 speed transmission 1977 fj40 stock 1987 fj60 locked front and rear 33" tires
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#94320 - 05/28/05 08:07 PM
Re: B16a1 Vs B18a1 All moter project
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Relix
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 16256
Loc: 640 acres of desert
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Yeah combine them both and get the B18 torque + displacement and the B16 high rev + VTEC.
Dude, the reason the b16 can rev higher then the b18 is the stroke not because of the head
B16 stroke = 77mm
b18a/b - 89mm
Slapping a b16 head on an LS engine and reving it up above the LS's red line is a very bad idea.....
There are a few things you need to do to increase the revving ability of a LS bottom end in order to make it safe, like swaping out either an ITR or GSR water and oil pump(LS oil pumps perform poorly above 7400rpms.... Also with the longer stroke 89mm your piston speeds will be increased alot adding alot of stress on the rodbolts so swapping them out for ARP bolts would be a good idea...
Stock for stock in the same car a LS engined car would kick the hell out of a b16a cars ass...
so i need to upgrade the oil pump and water pump in order to rev higher ? im looking for really high revs like 9 k or even 10 k
If your looking for rev's then a b16 is the way togo, the short stroke is very helpful in that area....But remeber if you have everything set up for high revs, like big cams and what not, it's going to make for a very annoying engine to be driving on the street...Big cams that make power in the higher rpm band like above 9K are dogs down low...
_________________________
Don't feed the troll BigAl or Albundy or Alfonso 1976 Fj55 landcruiser, 39" krawlers, front and rear lockers, on board air compressor , 16 speed transmission 1977 fj40 stock 1987 fj60 locked front and rear 33" tires
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#94322 - 05/29/05 10:06 AM
Re: B16a1 Vs B18a1 All moter project
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b6ixteen
Post Master Jr
Registered: 12/29/04
Posts: 1846
Loc: Florida
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Quote:
Quote:
Yeah combine them both and get the B18 torque + displacement and the B16 high rev + VTEC.
Dude, the reason the b16 can rev higher then the b18 is the stroke not because of the head
B16 stroke = 77mm
b18a/b - 89mm
I know its not because of the head. But LS/VTEC done the right way rev to 8000 and higher.
Quote:
Stock for stock in the same car a LS engined car would kick the hell out of a b16a cars ass...
Ok  , I guess the dyno showing over 15whp difference means nothing. 
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#94323 - 05/29/05 10:15 AM
Re: B16a1 Vs B18a1 All moter project
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Relix
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 16256
Loc: 640 acres of desert
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Yeah combine them both and get the B18 torque + displacement and the B16 high rev + VTEC.
Dude, the reason the b16 can rev higher then the b18 is the stroke not because of the head
B16 stroke = 77mm
b18a/b - 89mm
I know its not because of the head. But LS/VTEC done the right way rev to 8000 and higher.
Quote:
Stock for stock in the same car a LS engined car would kick the hell out of a b16a cars ass...
Ok , I guess the dyno showing over 15whp difference means nothing.
I'd take the 18 wtq over 15whp anyday
_________________________
Don't feed the troll BigAl or Albundy or Alfonso 1976 Fj55 landcruiser, 39" krawlers, front and rear lockers, on board air compressor , 16 speed transmission 1977 fj40 stock 1987 fj60 locked front and rear 33" tires
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#94324 - 05/29/05 10:43 AM
Re: B16a1 Vs B18a1 All moter project
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Vazquez27
Jr Poster
Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 143
Loc: Boston MA,
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#94326 - 05/30/05 04:42 PM
Re: B16a1 Vs B18a1 All moter project
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mintgecko
Jr Member
Registered: 05/18/00
Posts: 526
Loc: canada
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I am going to put my poinion here and i know like always everyone is going to make a big fuss cause their way is better.
B16a can rev higher becuase of it's rod to stroke ratio and stroke.
The b16a does not have a block guard becuase of this, and does not stress the bottom end in high rpm and lives in the high rpms.
A fully build gsr and sir, keeping the rod/stroke ratio means the sir will rev much higher.
This motor is good for drag cause it may not have the best low end torque but when you are drag racing your need the torque off the line, the rest are roughly 6800-8000 and needs hp. These motors are very good when matched with a super, turbo or nitrous.
The b18 makes more low end torque and is faster off the line but will not have as much hp in the high end or rev as high.
Honda did not make a type r for drag racing they made if for track racing where there is a lot of turns where stopping and going are what you need torque for, to get going, a b16a will not perform as good here.
Stock for stock a gsr has the displacement and has a advantage in a street car cause of the torque.
But a bored out b16a will gain what is lost from the displacement , gain torque and benefit even more with the high hp, high reving
The debate is low end torque or high reving hp.
You choose.
As for a ls motor vs sir motor, there is no comparison, vtec all the way.
But from my experiences cars prefer to stretch the gears and like the high revs over the low end torque.
were racing not towing, hp all the way.
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#94327 - 05/30/05 05:27 PM
Re: B16a1 Vs B18a1 All moter project
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Relix
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 16256
Loc: 640 acres of desert
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Mintgecko,
Are you saying a b16 with an 84mm bore will have the same amount of torque as a GSR motor or an LS/GS engine?
I was under the impression that those engines had more torque becuase they had a longer stroke.... A longer stroke it like having a longer breaker bar, meaning if i pushed down on a 1 foot breaker bar with 50 pounds of force I would make 50ft/lbs or turque, but if I had a 3 foot bar and pushed on it with 50 pounds of force i would produce 150ft/lbs or torque..
Please tell me where I am wrong here
_________________________
Don't feed the troll BigAl or Albundy or Alfonso 1976 Fj55 landcruiser, 39" krawlers, front and rear lockers, on board air compressor , 16 speed transmission 1977 fj40 stock 1987 fj60 locked front and rear 33" tires
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#94334 - 05/30/05 10:24 PM
Re: B16a1 Vs B18a1 All moter project
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mintgecko
Jr Member
Registered: 05/18/00
Posts: 526
Loc: canada
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You don't really want to stroke it, it defeats the short stroke which is what helps the motor, and you would also be changing the r/s ratio, Toda offers a stroker kit but make the r/s ratio 1.54, which is not what you want for high revs, that's even lower then the gsr with a r/s ratio of 1.58.
Honda realized they needed to re-enforce the bottom end with that r/s ratio on the gsr/type r and they added a block girdle, now adding that stroker kit to a stock b16a is not a good thing for long term reliability.
I would keep the motor the way it is, and just bore it out, keep the same length rods, stroke, etc.
The thing about the b16a is it has the ideal, r/s ratio, meaning it's right in the middle. Best of both worlds. a compromise between high revs and low end torque.
Bore it out to 84mm, that's about the most you can get, 85 is possible but apparently not to reliable. Your two major companies are aebs and dart, personally I would go with dart but that's all up to you.
This would not only be a good way to build on, it also means reliability.
Here is a link http://g-speed.com/pbh/stroker-info.html
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#94335 - 05/31/05 05:25 AM
Re: B16a1 Vs B18a1 All moter project
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CivicVTi
Sr Member
Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 1176
Loc: Athens , Greece
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Quote:
I'd take the 18 wtq over 15whp anyday
You forget an important factor: Gearing! The shorter gearing of B16 makes up for the loss in torque in the streets. The only area where you feel lesss powerful is the 3500-5500 rpm area (the black hole of all b16's) but not by that much (you won't feel a 18wtq loss. It will be most likely half of it). In the upper range, b16 has both more torque and shorter gearing and smokes the b18a by far. Not to mention that after each gear change (especially if you rev it a a little higher than a stock limiter) you get past 6000rpm!
I am not saying that torque is not important. On the contrary. But a wide powerband (like that of a b16) is equally if not more important. The best of both worlds is GSR/ITR engines. You have both torque and wide powerbands. Or an LS/VTEC if you like, correctly built (I would never build an LS/VTEC without a good set of rods, girdle and ITR oil/water pumps. I would also slam a set of JDM/Euro ITR pistons and that would be a really good setup).
_________________________
Honda Civic VTi '95 EG6 hatch (stock B16A2)
B18C6 specR swap (Euro)
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#94338 - 06/01/05 02:08 AM
Re: B16a1 Vs B18a1 All moter project
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Relix
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 16256
Loc: 640 acres of desert
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Quote:
Quote:
I'd take the 18 wtq over 15whp anyday
You forget an important factor: Gearing!
I'll give you that gearing of a SIR civic or SI civic is better suited for racing, but if those two engines were in the same car with the same tranny I will put any amount of money that the b18a/b's time to the end of the 1320 will be faster then the b16a's time....Although i do beleive the b16 will trap faster, but the ET will be slower...
_________________________
Don't feed the troll BigAl or Albundy or Alfonso 1976 Fj55 landcruiser, 39" krawlers, front and rear lockers, on board air compressor , 16 speed transmission 1977 fj40 stock 1987 fj60 locked front and rear 33" tires
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#94339 - 06/01/05 09:57 AM
Re: B16a1 Vs B18a1 All moter project
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cruzersi99
Post Master
Registered: 11/13/99
Posts: 2513
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I dont' disagree with your post but putting a qualifier like "if both motors have the same tranny and equal money put it" then the b18 will be faster doesn't say much. You still have to buy the tranny. The tranny is part of what is lacking in a stock b18b. An easy argument would be then to say, well you swapped the tranny on the b18 so I'll put a 4.9 final drive in the b16.
Additionally to what speeds are you racing to? From a stop from a roll? In each scenario "two equally built motors" will shine in different spots.
Equal money could be spent by two inexperienced builders or by two very experienced builders and the results would probably alternate. I know plenty of people who have spent as much money on a b18b, a b16, and even the b18c5 who aren't faster then me. Doesn't mean, that someone isn't faster then me.
This question was best answered many posts ago. Build what you want, and what you think you will have the most fun with.
_________________________
186 whp - Church Automotive (Dynapack) 189 whp - Zero Factory (Bosch)
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#94340 - 06/01/05 07:27 PM
Re: B16a1 Vs B18a1 All moter project
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Relix
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 16256
Loc: 640 acres of desert
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Quote:
I dont' disagree with your post but putting a qualifier like "if both motors have the same tranny and equal money put it" then the b18 will be faster doesn't say much. You still have to buy the tranny. The tranny is part of what is lacking in a stock b18b. An easy argument would be then to say, well you swapped the tranny on the b18 so I'll put a 4.9 final drive in the b16.
Seeing as how the person who started this thread already has both a b16 tranny and a LS tranny, it's a very valid argument..
Quote:
Additionally to what speeds are you racing to? From a stop from a roll? In each scenario "two equally built motors" will shine in different spots.
If you read my statement you'd know I was talking about a 1/4mile drag race(at a track of coarse) seeing as how i was talking about trap speeds,ET's and 1320..
_________________________
Don't feed the troll BigAl or Albundy or Alfonso 1976 Fj55 landcruiser, 39" krawlers, front and rear lockers, on board air compressor , 16 speed transmission 1977 fj40 stock 1987 fj60 locked front and rear 33" tires
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#94341 - 06/01/05 09:38 PM
Re: B16a1 Vs B18a1 All moter project
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cruzersi99
Post Master
Registered: 11/13/99
Posts: 2513
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Quote:
If you read my statement you'd know I was talking about a 1/4mile drag race(at a track of coarse) seeing as how i was talking about trap speeds,ET's and 1320..
Actually it was a rhetorical question. It's obvious you were talking about 1/4. I'm pointing out that there's more to racing than the quarter mile.
Either way, I'm not saying a b16a or the b18b is a better choice then the other in this case
_________________________
186 whp - Church Automotive (Dynapack) 189 whp - Zero Factory (Bosch)
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#94342 - 06/02/05 12:39 AM
Re: B16a1 Vs B18a1 All moter project
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CivicVTi
Sr Member
Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 1176
Loc: Athens , Greece
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A stock b18a with a b16 tranny would be a very bad combination. You would shift too early (eg: from 2nd to 3rd gear at 50mph) cause the b18a cannot rev that high. Remember the b16 has a very wide powerband and this is its strength (the strenght of every vtec engine especially dohc). Would you prefer a 150ftlb torque car that revs up to 5000rpm or a b16? For street racing, the b16 with the proper gearing would be soooo much faster!
_________________________
Honda Civic VTi '95 EG6 hatch (stock B16A2)
B18C6 specR swap (Euro)
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#94343 - 06/02/05 12:57 AM
Re: B16a1 Vs B18a1 All moter project
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Relix
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 16256
Loc: 640 acres of desert
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Quote:
A stock b18a with a b16 tranny would be a very bad combination. You would shift too early (eg: from 2nd to 3rd gear at 50mph) cause the b18a cannot rev that high. Remember the b16 has a very wide powerband and this is its strength (the strenght of every vtec engine especially dohc). Would you prefer a 150ftlb torque car that revs up to 5000rpm or a b16? For street racing, the b16 with the proper gearing would be soooo much faster!
5000rpms?!?! what engine are you talking about? Last time I check the redline in a b18b was 7200 rpms, but lets say you shift the b18b at 6500 rpms and dropped 2200rpms shifting into the next gear, you be nailing your peak torque of 118 and having about 100whp
Where as the b16a shifting at 7500rpms and loosing the same 2200 rpms ... It would be grabbing the next gear with the same 100whp but only about 101wft/lbs of torque.....
So in my opinion grabbing the next gear with an extra 17 foot pounds of torque would give the b18b a huge atvantage over the b16a
_________________________
Don't feed the troll BigAl or Albundy or Alfonso 1976 Fj55 landcruiser, 39" krawlers, front and rear lockers, on board air compressor , 16 speed transmission 1977 fj40 stock 1987 fj60 locked front and rear 33" tires
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#94345 - 06/02/05 05:52 PM
Re: B16a1 Vs B18a1 All moter project
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cruzersi99
Post Master
Registered: 11/13/99
Posts: 2513
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That's an excellent point that you make.
By shifting below the revlimit you may drop back down into peak or before peak but you lose out on the gearing advantage of the lower gear.
_________________________
186 whp - Church Automotive (Dynapack) 189 whp - Zero Factory (Bosch)
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#94346 - 06/03/05 04:56 AM
Re: B16a1 Vs B18a1 All moter project
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CivicVTi
Sr Member
Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 1176
Loc: Athens , Greece
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Quote:
5000rpms?!?! what engine are you talking about? Last time I check the redline in a b18b was 7200 rpms, but lets say you shift the b18b at 6500 rpms and dropped 2200rpms shifting into the next gear, you be nailing your peak torque of 118 and having about 100whp
I was just referrin to a hypothetical engine and not the b18b. Your hypothesis is wrong however. Let's say you shift 500rpm after peak power (which is optimum or near optimum). That would be 7000rpm with the b18b and 8100rpm with b16a. Let's say you shift from 2nd to 3rd. The b18b would drop to 4700rpm (given its gearing) while the b16a would drop to 5600rpm. The b18b, according to your graph has 102-103whp at 4700rpm while the b16 has more than 110whp at 5600rpm. It is wrong to compare torque at that levels without thinking that the b16's 3rd is shorter than b18's 3rd.
You have two options:
1. Compare torque figures but adjust them according to gearing
2. Simply compare HP and see who wins
The gearbox is a torque multiplier. The b18b has a final drive ratio of 4.266x1.269 at 3rd gear (total: 5.41) which means that its torque is multiplied by a factor of 8.1 (total torque to the wheels is thus 5.41 x 118lbft = 638.38 lb ft)
The b16 multiplies torque at 3rd gear by 4.4 x 1.458 = 6.41 which means that its torque there (around 102lbft at 5600rpm) is finally transfered as 653.82lb ft at the wheels.
Things are much easier if you just compare HP at any given instance during a race. The b16 is always stronger except with 1st gear and before vtec (which is alleviated by launcing with some wheel spin).
_________________________
Honda Civic VTi '95 EG6 hatch (stock B16A2)
B18C6 specR swap (Euro)
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Moderator: Runnin@Redline Jr, Dr. BrokenLimits, Professor Paki
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Just so u can sound cool or something. But if thats what u want then get a b16 cuz u'll destroy an lsvtec much quicker then a b16 if u continuously rev that high.
