#4330129 - 12/11/09 02:54 PM
Starting a new post, carnage pics - Bent rod oh my!
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ElectronVTEC2
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#4330152 - 12/11/09 03:01 PM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: ElectronVTEC2]
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danl
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/14/00
Posts: 12519
Loc: Maryland USA
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Failed harmonic tensioner?
Also, carnage game. This cylinder went lean, at 38-40psi.
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#4330156 - 12/11/09 03:03 PM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: danl]
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ElectronVTEC2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 5915
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The tensioner (I'm assuming that's the same as the harmonic balancer?) looks to be in decent shape but yea, it ate the fuck out of the lower cover. I'm already planning on replacing both of those pieces, for starters...
Todd
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2011 Edge (Wife's appliance) EVO IX MR, minor mods 
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#4330158 - 12/11/09 03:04 PM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: ElectronVTEC2]
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ElectronVTEC2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 5915
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Almost forgot, carnage pics rule - nice piston, that a new aerodynamic mod?
Todd
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2011 Edge (Wife's appliance) EVO IX MR, minor mods
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#4330173 - 12/11/09 03:09 PM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: ElectronVTEC2]
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ElectronVTEC2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 5915
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Looks like you're right, Dan - the harmonic balancer. I separated it from the lower cover then separated it from itself and the rubber is shot to hell. Most of the rubber is missing or torn out...
Todd
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2011 Edge (Wife's appliance) EVO IX MR, minor mods
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#4330228 - 12/11/09 03:23 PM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: danl]
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ElectronVTEC2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 5915
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I have a used head on the way, complete with everything I need to drop in and go. Paid $125 for it on the link forums and they haven't let me down yet. I didn't figure I could get replacement parts and machine work done for that and this way I have a spare head to leave in the garage and take my time getting it healthy again. Going to a composite gasket, new water pump, gasket, o-ring, timing belt, and the two parts I've found so far (balancer and lower cover).
On the HG, I bought some copper spray but haven't used that on a HG before. Do I spray the block with copper spray and then put the HG in place and bolt the head down? Also, on the water pump, I've seen where I should put a thin layer of RTV on the pump gasket surface, place the gasket on the pump with a little weight and let it sit overnight. Then, a thin layer of RTV where the pump mounts up and bolt it all in place. Does that all sound correct?
Thanks for your help Dan, you have no idea how grateful I am for your advice.
Todd
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2011 Edge (Wife's appliance) EVO IX MR, minor mods
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#4330402 - 12/11/09 03:58 PM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: ElectronVTEC2]
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danl
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/14/00
Posts: 12519
Loc: Maryland USA
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I do not use copper spray on headgaskets. Both my friend and I run stock composites and we put them on dry, that is how they are designed. We also reuise stock 6 bolt headbolts. Stock composite + stock headgasket goes 10's all day long if you don't detonate it. Just make sure the head and block are clean. You should have fresh iron and fresh aluminum. It can be 2-4 thou out with a composite, so don't worry too much, you don't push your hedgasket hard.
I use copper spray for the OEM water pump gaskets, front case gaskets, etc. Spray it on, let it get tacky, lay it on the water pump, and you can now slip the water pump on with gasket. Torque in sequence and its a low tq number, don't over do it. Overdoing it will warp your surfaces and you can get a leak. Vaseline on the water pump o-ring.
Pad the oil pan with an old rug when you have your jack under it so you don't dent it. You can now rock the engine up/down 8" or so to get better access to different components on the timing side of the engine. Also the timing belt kit from jayracing.com makes things nicer.
Good luck, the harmonic balancer failing has claimed others just like yourself.
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#4330680 - 12/11/09 05:32 PM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: ]
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ElectronVTEC2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 5915
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Chuck, the "new" head should be in good enough shape to bolt on and go. I will give it the eyeball treatment when I get it but other than possibly putting new exh. manifold studs in, I'll most likely put it on like I got it. Cash is just a little tight right now with the holidays and since this is my winter car, I need it back to a running state yesterday  I did do most of the maintenance items when we swapped in my 6 bolt last April though (front/rear main seals, etc...).
I also found a bigger issue than the crank balancer and is probably the reason I have bent intake valves (I eyeballed the rockers when I popped the VC last night, all the rockers were on. Funny thing is if you so much as breathe on the 1,2, and 4 intake rockers, they fall off). So, yea... Anyway, my timing belt tensioner pulley bolt was only finger tight. I thought something might be up when I saw the two eyelets pointing perpendicular to the ground instead of horizontal and above the bolt, but I went to untension the belt by undoing that bolt and was shocked when I could spin it out by hand. I found my timing belt tensioner rod tool so I'll do it the right way next time, but it really didn't matter at this point. When I put it all back together, does that bolt get thread locker on it? I didn't torque that bolt down last time but I know who did... hehe.
Todd
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2011 Edge (Wife's appliance) EVO IX MR, minor mods
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#4330741 - 12/11/09 06:00 PM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: ElectronVTEC2]
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progressi
Post Master Sr
Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 9133
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Todd,I wish I could give you advice,but with Dan here it's pointless-all I can do is nod. lol
But I can tell you this. Beat this car,wrench on it til' you get it right. Make this an accomplishment and come out of it stronger. These are awesome cars but they can and have tested the resolve of good mechanics. They're just getting too old and have seen too much abuse-both intentional and otherwise.
When I was new with my DSM there were days I was sick of it,but they became fewer and far between. It was tough because I had a 60 mile daily commute to make with it and I could never afford to be broken down. The commute was hilly,often in 100 degree heat with the AC running and Id be stuck in traffic often. Having said all that,the car never let me down-never broke down. It had issues at time,but most of them were just performance issues,not necessarily drivability. I blame most of those performance issues on the nasty CA gas,ask Dano about that.
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#4330955 - 12/11/09 08:13 PM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: progressi]
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CommonGutterTrash
This user is more useless than a half-baked compost pile.
Post Master Sr
Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 6437
Loc: Boston MA
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FWIW, I had an un-dampened UR pulley on my FWD for a long while.
you can pick them up cheap, and they ARE balanced, but not having the damper could do damage if you're high-revving.
finding a good aftermarket replacement damper isn't toooo hard.
I'm like 90% sure Dorman sells one. I think we sold them @ 1a.
here's one for a 7-bolt:
http://www.1aauto.com/1A/HarmonicBalancer/Mitsubishi/Eclipse/1AEHB00007/359622
I'm pretty sure they're interchangable.
no matter WHAT the seller says about the "new" head, bring it by a machine shop, and have them vacuum test it, at minimum.
I'm a fan of the evoIII/ralliart/MLS HG for the 4g63. they're pretty rugged, and if you happen to lift the head, you can re-torque it down, and you haven't blown any of the "paper" out, like an OE/composite would. if nothing else, the fact that they're 100% re-usable is pretty cool.
and, as dan said. spray-shit is only for cometics, and those suck, anyways.
lastly, don't EVER lean on a breaker bar to try and crank a motor.
if the valves were somehow NOT bent, they sure as fuck are, now.
Just cut the timing belt, and have a look. you'll be able to see damage on the toothed side if the belt pretty easily, if the belt skipped, and at this point, you're pulling the head, no matter what.
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Craig R. 2000 9-5 Gary Fisher Wagon 1995 850 T-5R 1996 Galant  AIM = gclipse96
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#4333932 - 12/13/09 08:42 AM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: danl]
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ElectronVTEC2
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#4336349 - 12/14/09 03:01 AM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: ElectronVTEC2]
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Relix
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 16256
Loc: 640 acres of desert
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ouch
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Don't feed the troll BigAl or Albundy or Alfonso 1976 Fj55 landcruiser, 39" krawlers, front and rear lockers, on board air compressor , 16 speed transmission 1977 fj40 stock 1987 fj60 locked front and rear 33" tires 
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#4347044 - 12/16/09 07:03 PM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: Relix]
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ElectronVTEC2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 5915
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Little bit of an update. I dropped the pan and tried to "move" the crank and as far as my inexperienced ass can tell, there is no play side to side or in/out, at least not that I can create with my arms. Everything looks good in the pan, no flakes/glitter so my friend and I are going to pull out the rods, re-ring all of the pistons, hone/clean the block slightly, and put new bearings in. I looked at a few of the cylinder walls closely and you can still see crosshatch on them so I don't think we need much cleaning/honing.
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#4348904 - 12/17/09 10:40 AM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: Euphoricuck]
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ElectronVTEC2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 5915
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I just realized, I didn't post anything up about what I found the other day. I've had low compression in #3 for months (130 or so vs 150-ish in the other three) and now I know why. Well, I should say, I'll know for sure tonight when I pull that rod/piston out but it looks like I have a bent rod in #3. It doesn't come up to the same height as the rest of the assembly. So, the pistons are all coming out, the motor is getting a quick ball-hone treatment, and new rings/rod bearings are going in. Yay motor rebuild! I figure it's the time to do it since everything is already apart and the cost is miniscule so why the hell not... No new internals are going in (save for a replacement stock rod) as I do not have plans to take this car any further than it is right now power-wise.
Todd
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#4350019 - 12/17/09 02:50 PM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: danl]
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ElectronVTEC2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 5915
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I have been told that if I were to go with ARP rod bolts that I'd need to get the big ends of the rods machined out to work correctly.
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#4350074 - 12/17/09 02:59 PM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: ElectronVTEC2]
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ElectronVTEC2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 5915
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Oh yea, Dan, the consensus at this point on DSMLink is that a bent rod + two broken exhaust valves tells them the motor hydrolocked at some point. That's the theory at this point...
Todd
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#4350769 - 12/17/09 06:35 PM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: ElectronVTEC2]
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CommonGutterTrash
This user is more useless than a half-baked compost pile.
Post Master Sr
Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 6437
Loc: Boston MA
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you will need machining for ARP's.
also, don't pull the crank/main bearings unless you have to.
That's where 90% of "Rebuild" failures occur; between the main caps, the oil pump, and whatever else...
With a motor as square as the 4g, there's rarely a reason to to the mains, unless the motor was starved for oil for a "long time"
Just do the rings, and rod bearings.
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Craig R. 2000 9-5 Gary Fisher Wagon 1995 850 T-5R 1996 Galant AIM = gclipse96
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#4350874 - 12/17/09 07:32 PM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: ElectronVTEC2]
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danl
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/14/00
Posts: 12519
Loc: Maryland USA
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That rod is bad, real bad. Amazing it didn't snap actually. That thing definitely saw water.
Reuse the rod bolts then, I was always told this was a no no. I never touch cranks other than make sure they have acceptable clearance, and they always have. 1.5-2.5 thou (even 3 thou with thick oil) is acceptable for street usage on these engines. I don't touch them up with emery cloth. My friend did after he drove 20 miles on a 4g with no oil pressure (long story but he had to get to class and work). So just wrap the crank with rags and seran wrap or alumium foil as best you can. Then do the piston ring with a rag trick at the bottom of the cylinders. Tape off the coolant passages and oil feed in the block so you don't get stuff down there. I use WD40 as my lubricant and give each cylinder 60-80 seconds with the hone in a drill shooting for a 60 deg cross hatch pattern. I'd say 30 rpm in the drill moving it up and down in the bore as you go. When you are done wipe down the cylinder with brake cleaner or acetone until it comes off clean. It takes some work, but it should be clean when you wipe it. I then lubricate the bores and piston/ring assembly with motor oil and stuff it in the hole (well tap it) with a dead blow hammer and LIGHT taps in case a ring is hanging up. Bolt the rods down and throw a piece of plasticgauge on each rod journal to see if you are ok on your clearances, mostly to make sure you have the right size bearings, plasticgauge is NOT how you spec out a motor, mic and bore gauge is for specing clearances. Anyways torque her down, double check your torque, triple check. Rotate motor, make sure things seem right. Put the oil pickup back on with a new gasket. I use the copper spray here, works well. Throw the pan back up on after making sure surfaces are CLEAN with acetone. I use permatex orange high temp, works really well. Audi/VW makes some nice stuff as well. The rest you should know by now, unfortunately.
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#4350986 - 12/17/09 08:18 PM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: progressi]
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ElectronVTEC2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 5915
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Todd,I wish I could give you advice,but with Dan here it's pointless-all I can do is nod. lol
But I can tell you this. Beat this car,wrench on it til' you get it right. Make this an accomplishment and come out of it stronger. These are awesome cars but they can and have tested the resolve of good mechanics. They're just getting too old and have seen too much abuse-both intentional and otherwise.
When I was new with my DSM there were days I was sick of it,but they became fewer and far between. It was tough because I had a 60 mile daily commute to make with it and I could never afford to be broken down. The commute was hilly,often in 100 degree heat with the AC running and Id be stuck in traffic often. Having said all that,the car never let me down-never broke down. It had issues at time,but most of them were just performance issues,not necessarily drivability. I blame most of those performance issues on the nasty CA gas,ask Dano about that.
Dude, I don't know how I missed this post before but it's a good one. Thanks for the encouragement!
Todd
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2011 Edge (Wife's appliance) EVO IX MR, minor mods
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#4351046 - 12/17/09 08:47 PM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: danl]
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ElectronVTEC2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 5915
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Yea, I'd feel better if I was making a lot of power but I'm really not. The compression test definitely pointed out the problem but I agree, it's akin to knowing the year you're going to die or something. Ah well, I had intended to "do something about" the low compression this spring (replace the MLS, water pump, re-ring cyl #3), it apparently just wanted to go out on it's own time table.
Todd
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#4358680 - 12/20/09 08:56 PM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: Euphoricuck]
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ElectronVTEC2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 5915
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My friend came over tonight and about two and a half hours later I have a rotating assembly again - new and improved to move all the way to the top of the bore! It actually isn't bad at all, cleaning out the grooves on the pistons was far and away the shittiest part, the rest was really pretty simple. Plastigauge looked to be in the ballpark according to my friend and the ring gap was fine. All in all, no surprises, just learned to hate assembly lube when you're under a car and it's falling in your eyes. Thanks again for all the tips, Dan, they proved very helpful!
Next up is reattaching the pan/tcase/subframe and hopefully I'll have my head this week so I can get it tested and maybe, just maybe start reassembling it this weekend. I'll keep everyone posted for sure.
Todd
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2011 Edge (Wife's appliance) EVO IX MR, minor mods
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#4359504 - 12/21/09 06:49 AM
Re: Starting a new post, carnage pics...
[Re: ElectronVTEC2]
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danl
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/14/00
Posts: 12519
Loc: Maryland USA
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Glad it worked out, see its not that bad is it? Its just slightly harder than replacing a headgasket because you have to drop the oil pan as well. Did you reuse the old rings? I have been wanting to put together a spare motor with a set of stock pistons from a 1990 car. I was just going to spit shine them, lightly hone the cylinders, and put a bottom end together. Last motor I put together I reused the rings, but they were out of a "just rebuilt" motor that needed redone because the crankshaft was siezing up and sending metal through the motor. Great assembly, that crank is now junk. 
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