#5092608 - 10/09/10 02:38 AM
The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
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ElectronVTEC2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 5915
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Having trouble staying asleep tonight so I figured I'd come on down and explain why I am now in my 3rd car of 2010 and why, overall, my experience with German cars left a little to be desired.
I'll start by saying as a machine, I really don't think one can build a much better one than the Audi S4. Unfortunately, the driving experience is not the end-all to owning a car, and my ultimate decision to get out of the S4 came down to practicality and some recent life changes, though nothing very drastic really.
The pros of the S4:
Fit and finish were second to none, and I've owned quite a few cars. The interior, as everyone knows, spawned generations of dash molesters single-handedly.
Highway driving - the S4 is the first car that truly made me wonder how awesome the US would be with a true autobahn. It simply lives at 70+ MPH.
The combination of refinement and performance it manages to pull off is nothing short of amazing. Something with it's capabilities just shouldn't be as quiet and "plush" as it is. This could be viewed in a negative light by some crowds, however.
The cons:
Ya'll warned me about it, and I didn't listen: gas mileage. I never bought this car with the intention of hypermiling it by any means, but jesus christ Audi, put a longer 6th gear in. Traveling at 75 MPH and turning damn near 3500 RPM in a V8 6MT is fucking stupid and unnecessary, and you know it. Plus, and this is my own issue - my commute to work recently changed from a 30-mile each way highway commute to a 20 mile each-way city commute. Fuck me and the Audi's 13 mpg in the city in the ass.
My local dealership - as referenced in a previous post, I got bent over and fucked hard with no reacharound by those jokers, and it truly sealed the deal on my decision to sell. Called the credit card company - no love for this hoe, I can tell you that.
The selling experience - I could write for days about how I will never, ever, ever try to sell another German car, but in summary, I will just say that the average customer shopping for a used German car is a very rare, picky, and... how shall I say... "frugal" thing.
To sum up, my maintenance risk and to a lesser extent my piss-poor fuel economy + new commute both tipped the scales in favor of going back to the two-car model. I have obtained a perfectly plain, fuel-sipping, "auto-slushbox so the wife can drive it" 2003 Civic EX and I have to say, I'm loving life. My gas mileage, no shit, has increased by almost 3 times, plus I can go back to cat-piss unleaded. Since the car payment is 1/3 of the Audi, I can even further accelerate my debt-payoff plan. I plan to completely eliminate all credit cards and at *least* one car payment and then I will go shopping for a fun car. Something like a Mustang to turbo, or a stock C5Z, or maybe a Nissan Z to turbo charge? Don't know really, but some sort of a project down the road that I can buy with cash.
As for my future with German cars - the only possible way I ever purchase another one is if I can get a good deal on a CPO unit, or buy an older, well-maintained and easier for the home mechanic to work on example with cash. The depreciation hit on high-end German cars is nothing short of stunning, and was unfortunately not something I factored in when I bought the Audi in the first place.
CN: Audi ownership was too expensive for my tastes. Picked up a 2003 Civic EX, sold the Audi, and will buy a project car after all my debt is paid off. Hoo-effing-ray. Even with all that said, for those with more resources than I can devote to a car at this point, the S4 really *is* a terrific machine.
Todd
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2011 Edge (Wife's appliance) EVO IX MR, minor mods 
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#5092639 - 10/09/10 04:37 AM
Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
[Re: ElectronVTEC2]
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cliff st-clair
Post Master Sr
Registered: 01/03/00
Posts: 6376
Loc: Queens Village, NY
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Yeah to me the gas mileage is the biggest turnoff. And couple that with the relatively small tank I'm sure I'd begin to hate it after a couple months too. To own a car like that I'd have to be a true baller, like greekthug, for example.
Good luck with the Civic and your future purchase!
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03' 350z
04' Mazda 3 s
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#5092661 - 10/09/10 07:19 AM
Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
[Re: cliff st-clair]
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ElectronVTEC2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 5915
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Yea, it's hard to let something like that ruin a car for you but it really does get old after a little while. The unfortunate thing? The issue that prompted me to take the car to the dealer actually caused the car to get almost 20% better mileage. Prior to getting fixed, I was seeing 20 to 22 mpg at a 70 mph cruise on the highway. After the fix, I was only getting around 17 to 18 under the same conditions. That was basically when I said FML, I just spent $XXX to get even worse gas mileage. Oh, and the car wasn't nearly as responsive afterward either. Not sure how or why, but it just is what it is. I absolutely do not regret buying it though, it was quite the car to own, even if only for five months...
Todd
_________________________
2011 Edge (Wife's appliance) EVO IX MR, minor mods
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#5092675 - 10/09/10 07:55 AM
Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
[Re: ElectronVTEC2]
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65_289
Post Master Sr
Registered: 04/19/01
Posts: 4052
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That really sucks to hear. I wonder if the new supercharged S4 would have left a different taste in your mouth (and less anal pain).
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#5092739 - 10/09/10 09:15 AM
Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
[Re: 65_289]
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grkthugisback
Jr Poster
Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 84
Loc: Brooklyn , Ny
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LOLOLOLOL ... Funnnny one 65 . Sorry to hear about your bad experience in the GErman world my friend . And Cliff if you wanna drive nice cars i can still make you my best friend slave driver and we can cruise all day LOL . ( dont be alarmed people im not racist and me and Cliff are old friends) . Electron when did you purchase this car ? Was it new or used ? I personally feel that buying such NICE NICE cars New is a waste . I think buying it used it always a better way to go . Just make sure its certified and has low miles . You would be amazed the money you save on these nice cars . Now when you bought the S4 you KNEW you where getting a V8 bro , dont act suprised that you got shit gas mileage . Lol What v8 gets good gas mileage ? My Cayenne if i do highway driving on its 22 gallon tank can MAYBE get 350 miles on the tank . In the city ? I get about 225-260 depending how I drive on that tank and if its in sport mode all the time or not . I personally only hate the fact that I gotta keep putting gas in not cause of the money , but for the simple fact that im like DAMN i gotta put gas again in this bitch ? My Honda V6 accord Can do 400 miles on a tank and i believe is 15 gallons . So i get a nice break from filling that tank up at the station .
If your in debt , then buying a nice car wasnt actually the smartest thing to do , BUT if it makes you happy sometimes you gotta just do it and work thru it . If you want to get a cheaper car to have fun with ? Just look at all those NICE NICE cars you thought you couldnt afford and find them used bro . Your telling me you wouldnt want a nice used Rs4 ???? Shit I saw one yesterday and that bitch was SWEEEEEEETT . Just pay off your debt , take your time and by yourself a nice car you can enjoy on weekends . Keep the civic to beat around in . And drive your other car on the weekends broham .
_________________________
2006 Honda Accord EX-V6(Commuter)
2007 Porsche 997(modded)
2008 Porsche Cayenne GT-S 6 speed(stock)
2009 Harley Davidson 1200 Nightster(Summer ride)
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#5092786 - 10/09/10 10:35 AM
Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
[Re: grkthugisback]
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ElectronVTEC2
Post Master Sr
Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 5915
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Grk, I bought it used, non-certified (prev. owner had it under CPO for a few years). It was actually in pretty darn good shape, was well-maintained and very, very clean. I just got the raw end of the stick on the cooling system issue and it soured me on the whole experience really fast.
I get what you're saying about the V8, but honestly? Look at the CTS-V, supercharged V8 getting the same or better economy than the S4, whilst making 200+ more bhp. Or, look at our good friend Ellis - 35% larger than the 4.2, makes 28 mpg on the highway thanks to *intelligent* 6th gear ratio. All the same though, you're absolutely right on multiple counts - when in debt, don't go buy a potentially risky, high-end luxo car. Especially not one that will rape you at the pump.
Winter's coming up here so I'll have a solid 6 months to work my magic on our debt and I think that when all is said and done, I'll have 75% of it paid off by the time April hits. I'll never stop being a car guy, I just need to pull back a little bit and be a *smarter* car guy :).
Todd
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2011 Edge (Wife's appliance) EVO IX MR, minor mods
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#5093165 - 10/09/10 05:47 PM
Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
[Re: danl]
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Impulsive
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 11/28/99
Posts: 79972
Loc: Edmonton
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Peak engine fuel efficiency (BSFC) is at torque peak. If torque peak (at cruising engine load) is at 3500 then the gearing is correct.
Empirical fuel economy evidence disagrees. When you talk Peak engine efficiency, you are referring to WOT, not the 10% throttle required to maintain 75 mph.
FWIW, the G37 gets 3 mpg better on the highway - due to the extra gears in the trans. I would think we all know by now that overdrives work. Even BMW is touting good efficiency gains simply by going to the 8 speed auto over the 6.
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2016 Stingray Z51 3LT - Stock
2021 Model 3P - I/H/E
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#5093336 - 10/09/10 07:32 PM
Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
[Re: Euphoricuck]
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LNXGUY
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 08/06/00
Posts: 106985
Loc: Barrie, Ont,
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Man, that fucking car shouldn't be running 3500rpm at 75mph, good god.
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-Bill The GN would OWN you, your children and your children's children. '09 E90 335 d
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#5093352 - 10/09/10 07:42 PM
Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
[Re: Impulsive]
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LNXGUY
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 08/06/00
Posts: 106985
Loc: Barrie, Ont,
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A 4-ish litre V8 should be running under 2500rpm's in 6th gear at that speed.
Maybe zee Germans geared it for zee Autobahn!!!!!
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-Bill The GN would OWN you, your children and your children's children. '09 E90 335 d
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#5093380 - 10/09/10 08:11 PM
Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
[Re: Stock94si]
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LNXGUY
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 08/06/00
Posts: 106985
Loc: Barrie, Ont,
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at least you gave it a shot and are now wiser. i have a 90 mile round trip daily commute so i should be doing the two car thing, but i suspect i'd end up spending the same money for two pieces of shit.
*cough* TDI no brainer *cough*
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-Bill The GN would OWN you, your children and your children's children. '09 E90 335 d
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#5093435 - 10/09/10 08:30 PM
Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
[Re: LNXGUY]
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Stock94si
Post Master Sr
Registered: 03/19/00
Posts: 9086
Loc: Live Free or Die
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at least you gave it a shot and are now wiser. i have a 90 mile round trip daily commute so i should be doing the two car thing, but i suspect i'd end up spending the same money for two pieces of shit. *cough* TDI no brainer *cough*
Then i could spend 95% of my time in a car i hate, and the other 5% trying to convince my woman to ride in the loud shaking car that reeks of exhaust fumes.
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#5093451 - 10/09/10 08:41 PM
Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
[Re: Impulsive]
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danl
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/14/00
Posts: 12519
Loc: Maryland USA
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Peak engine fuel efficiency (BSFC) is at torque peak. If torque peak (at cruising engine load) is at 3500 then the gearing is correct. Empirical fuel economy evidence disagrees. When you talk Peak engine efficiency, you are referring to WOT, not the 10% throttle required to maintain 75 mph. FWIW, the G37 gets 3 mpg better on the highway - due to the extra gears in the trans. I would think we all know by now that overdrives work. Even BMW is touting good efficiency gains simply by going to the 8 speed auto over the 6.
See the part where I said "at cruising engine load". BSFC as a function of RPM relies on engine load.
Its kinda hard to argue that if you burn fuel more efficiently (higher BSFC) that you will maintain best fuel economy. LOL
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#5093453 - 10/09/10 08:41 PM
Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
[Re: Stock94si]
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LNXGUY
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 08/06/00
Posts: 106985
Loc: Barrie, Ont,
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at least you gave it a shot and are now wiser. i have a 90 mile round trip daily commute so i should be doing the two car thing, but i suspect i'd end up spending the same money for two pieces of shit. *cough* TDI no brainer *cough* Then i could spend 95% of my time in a car i hate, and the other 5% trying to convince my woman to ride in the loud shaking car that reeks of exhaust fumes.
I didn't know the '10 Golf TDI's shook like crazy and reeked like exhaust.
You should probably approach VW corporate and let them know.
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-Bill The GN would OWN you, your children and your children's children. '09 E90 335 d
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#5093870 - 10/10/10 01:17 AM
Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
[Re: danl]
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Impulsive
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 11/28/99
Posts: 79972
Loc: Edmonton
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Its kinda hard to argue that if you burn fuel more efficiently (higher BSFC) that you will maintain best fuel economy. LOL
LOL? Like you have inside knowledge of the 10% throttle open dyno peak torque on an Audi S4? No V8 car is at peak efficiency at 3500 on the highway and the real world proves that.
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2016 Stingray Z51 3LT - Stock
2021 Model 3P - I/H/E
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#5093877 - 10/10/10 01:31 AM
Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
[Re: danl]
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Impulsive
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 11/28/99
Posts: 79972
Loc: Edmonton
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Anyways there is a rpm that the engine is most efficient at turning the combustion into torque. This changes with engine load. Just because WOT torque peak is 5000rpm doesn't mean that the torque peak at 10 in/hg is 5000rpm. Think about it......
You clearly said BSFC was at the engines torque peak or "cruising" torque peak. Not decent sized V8 is going to get better economy at 3500 than 2500 on the highway - hence the word empirical.
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2016 Stingray Z51 3LT - Stock
2021 Model 3P - I/H/E
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#5094028 - 10/10/10 09:09 AM
Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
[Re: LNXGUY]
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Stock94si
Post Master Sr
Registered: 03/19/00
Posts: 9086
Loc: Live Free or Die
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at least you gave it a shot and are now wiser. i have a 90 mile round trip daily commute so i should be doing the two car thing, but i suspect i'd end up spending the same money for two pieces of shit. *cough* TDI no brainer *cough* Then i could spend 95% of my time in a car i hate, and the other 5% trying to convince my woman to ride in the loud shaking car that reeks of exhaust fumes. I didn't know the '10 Golf TDI's shook like crazy and reeked like exhaust. You should probably approach VW corporate and let them know.
The TDI would be the car I hate. The 'other car' would be the one loud stinky one
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#5094194 - 10/10/10 12:07 PM
Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
[Re: danl]
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NOT spotch...
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 57155
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but as ive always said...for most cars you wont see a huge increase in fuel consumption from a little bit of extra revs. like all those who whine about hondas revving high on the highway. giving it another gear that dropped the revs 1k or more(for example) would probably make it drink more fuel since it would need more load (throttle) to maintain the same speed since it makes lower torch.
Yeah, but I don't think it's a coincidence that of the 1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 1.8 liter hondas I've owned, the gas mileage they got was strongly correlated with the RPM they spun at 70~ mph (the 1.7 did better than the 1.6, 1.5, and 1.8, and spun at an even lower rpm than all 3). My 2.0 neon got slightly worse gas mileage than the 1.7 (but better than the 1.5/1.6/1.8) and had *very* similar gearing and rpms/mph. Neons with the .81 fifth gear instead of my weak ass .72 got noticeably worse gas mileage than I did (but were way better at passing on the highway lol) The prelude, otoh, at 3000++ rpm at 70mph, sucked ass in the gas mileage dept. ton of throttle response on the highway/great passing power, but drank fuel like whoa. In my experience, it takes *very* little tq to cruise at ~70mph in a relatively lightweight vehicle with a half decent cd and a non-huge frontal area. The problem is, it's not exactly fun to drive something making just enough power to efficiently maintain a 70mph cruise. We hate having to downshift to pass someone, we just want to press the pedal and blow everyone off the road. If audi gave the s4 a true fuel sipper 6th gear, every mag on the planet would scream out in disgust. "OMG THE REV DROP TO 6TH AND THE LACK OF POWER IS UNBEARABLE!"
just my experience though lol
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#5094255 - 10/10/10 01:15 PM
Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
[Re: danl]
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grkthugisback
Jr Poster
Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 84
Loc: Brooklyn , Ny
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EV, your story is the same as every other German car owner I know. My uncle has had good luck with BMW's, that is as long as he trades it in before the factory warranty is up. BMW has even been good about paying for taxi rides to get him home when his BMW shuts off on him for reasons even the dealership can't understand why.
My aunt was $11,000 in the hole before she gave up on her Audi. She got an Infinity and couldn't be happier.
EV I say take a break and relax bro . Save some money , And REALLY drive around and see what you wanna get with time . Before I bought the Cayenne I went to see Mercedes S550,BMW M6,Maseratti Quattroporte I mean i drove everything and asked myself DO I WANT THIS FOR SURE ? Can it do what i need it to ? want it to ? Can it be driven in the snow ? Does it handle well in the rain ? Fucked up weather conditions you know ? Im putting my family in there my wife n kids need to be safe , they need room , and then you gotta satisfy YOUR own taste . Is it fast enough ? How does it perform ? how does it handle ? Does it look nice ? Will i enjoy driving it everyday or 4 times a week ? does this car look good with me in it ? So many things you gotta look into man , Thats why the Cayenne was so natural for me when I drove it . It did it ALL and im SO happy with this fucking thing . my 911 gave me all the thrills i wanted with its 600HP . Ask me if i would drive it in the snow ? lol NEVer , Rain ? like if its overcast I wont take it out . The Cayenne i take out thru any conditions man . Thats what it ALL comes down to . Can you afford it and does it meet EVERY STANDARD .. Take your time bro and make the RIGHT choice for you . No one can tell you how to spend your money they all got their own opinion .
_________________________
2006 Honda Accord EX-V6(Commuter)
2007 Porsche 997(modded)
2008 Porsche Cayenne GT-S 6 speed(stock)
2009 Harley Davidson 1200 Nightster(Summer ride)
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#5094295 - 10/10/10 02:09 PM
Re: The pros and cons of Audi S4 ownership
[Re: Euphoricuck]
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NOT spotch...
Post Master Supreme
Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 57155
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my car does 3300 rpm @ 75 mph
Si was at 4000 rpm.
to lazy to calculate the dsm.
both get/got decent mileage on the hwy...nevermind the fact I rarely go 75 mph lol 90.
You cant just compare different engines/yrs from gear ratios alone. engines designs are different, some tech has evolved for mpg etc....
Ok, so just comparing a 98 neon with a .72 fifth gear to one with a .81, the .72 is going to be the mileage master even though it will be way slower when you punch it on the highway. Juuuust enough to cruise. (same way with my 1.7 civic... funny how the tallest geared cars I've owned, with the least gearing advantage at 70~mph, were also the best mpg-getting cars I've owned by a mile... like mid-high 40s vs 40 flat or worse  ).
But, like I said, cars that feel weak cruising at 70mph in 5th will be hated on. And on a test drive? Forget it. Get it out on the highway and the first thing you'd hear would be "OMG ITS SO SLOW". The mags/buyers/etc feel the slowness of the tall top gear, and don't realize that top gear isn't for highway roll-on racing, it's for gas mileage. I mean shit, that's one of the comparison tests for the mags... '50-70mph top gear passing time' or whatever. My neon and my 05 civic were in great pain accelerating at 50mph in top gear... terrible. But that's the price you pay for making 65-75 your cruising 'sweet spot'.
Think about it...a test drive is 20-30~ mins... long enough to feel the 'weakness' cruising on the highway, but not nearly long enough so you'll see yourself saving a ton at the pump over the long term.
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Moderator: auxilary, Professor Paki
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I learned quite a bit through this experience and I shouldn't say I'm done with German cars forever, I'm just done with making piss-poor decisions for awhile. 
